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Ask HN: How do you deal with or improve software development estimates?

• dr01d 8y ago
  Get 3 engineers to do estimation on the same work. Not only helps to get better estimations, but also helps to understand people's strengths and weaknesses on tasks as well as inform more people of a project specifics. Also PERT: https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/it-consultant/use-pert-technique-for-more-accurate-estimates/ https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/it-consultant/use-pert-tec...
• mikro2nd 8y ago
  No, estimating software work is impossible. I refuse to do it. If pressed insistently I will "estimate" four hours. I've encountered situations where I was told, "That's unacceptable." My response was, "OK, two weeks." Need I say that that was also "unacceptable". My point is that any "estimate" is nothing more than a guess, and irrelevant in any case. A given feature/bugfix/whatever is gonna take as long as its gonna take. Estimation is a shibboleth.
  • gadders 8y ago
    I hope you never get any work done on your house. "I've given you the architects plans for my kitchen. How long do you think it will take?" "It will take as long as it's gonna take. Please sign this blank cheque."
    • mikro2nd 8y ago
      There's a world of difference... People have been working on houses for... a couple of thousand years?... there's not much that's unknown about house building. Software building? Not so much. It's almost always all unknowns. New libraries, new programming languages, new requirements never before dreamed of, new everything. Your parallel with housebuilding is a false one.
      • gadders 8y ago
        If you can't give at least give a order of magnitude estimate, or an estimate with documented assumptions, you don't know your job well enough.
    • afarrell 8y ago
      Someone who is building a new kitchen has likely built many before and there are a bounded number of things that can go wrong in the schedule of that. Even so, the Scott brothers still sometimes have cost overruns. A better parallel would be building a tunnel or railway line -- something bespoke and which has to deal with lots of stakeholders and dependencies. A Londoner or a Bostonian can tell you that the schedules for those are not that reliable either. ------- But that is kinda beside the point. The ability of someone else in another profession to produce estimates doesn't actually provide any indication about the path a software engineer can walk to learn to produce estimates.
      • gadders 8y ago
        It's not whether the estimates are reliable or not, it's unwillingness to give any estimate at all. Nobody should be held to an estimate if unforeseen things happen - the equivalent of the builder finding an unexploded a WW2 bomb but the inability to give any figure at all is incompetence. Something like "if it all goes smoothly, two weeks, but library x is bleeding edge and could double that if it doesn't work as advertised." or "give me three days to build a prototype and try some edge cases and then I'll be able to give you a firmer figure." is acceptable and at least gives someone idea if a featurev is worth the cost of building it.
        • afarrell 8y ago
          > but the inability to give any figure at all is incompetence. Right, but it is incompetence that we don't know as an industry how to cure. Can you point me to a class on how to do software engineering estimates? Can you point me to someone who is able to do 1-on-1 tutoring on the subject? What is the path for a junior engineer out of uni to become competent at giving estimates? Claiming to be competent (by giving a number you just pulled out of your ass) is worse communication than owning up to your own incompetence.
          • gadders 8y ago
            It depends on the task and what you're doing, but you can normally give some idea, or break the task down into stages. I agree it would be great if there was some way of teaching estimation, but what it mostly comes down to is experience.
  • BjoernKW 8y ago
    That's not a constructive attitude. While it's true that the way estimates often are treated is not particularly constructive either but rather more of a fool's errand blanket statements like "estimating software work is impossible" aren't conducive to improving anything. The only thing statements like that are likely to achieve is to alienate people. Software project estimates aren't an exact science but with experience it's quite possible to provide estimates within a margin of error. Whether those estimates are useful in turn entirely depends on what they're used for (e.g. informing a build-measure-learn cycle rather than for blame-shifting once something goes wrong).
    • afarrell 8y ago
      The reason it is a nonconstructive attitude is that saying "4 hours" or "2 weeks" is not a direct and honest expression of what you'd mean by saying it. The honest and communicative thing to say is something like: """ I do not know how to develop a meaningfully accurate number of days or hours that this will take. The software industry as a whole has not developed reliable best practices for estimating software tasks or for teaching those practices to other software engineers. As such, it would be deceptive and unprofessional for me to give you a number. """ To really communicate this effectively, you have to say it with confidence: standing up straight, shoulders back, making eye contact. It is uncomfortable and the sort of thing that makes me feel a bit nauseous to say, but as a professional, it is important to be honest even in the face of discomfort. To this opener, I would personally add to this statement either "However, if you are looking to get a rough assessment of the size or complexity involved, this is the sort of task that I can take 2 hours and produce a breakdown of the components of this." or "I sense that what you'd really like is a judgement of how large or complex this task is. However, at this stage, the task is not well-scoped enough for me to do that. I would need to invest effort into fleshing that out. If you'd like I can timebox one (or two) days to investigate and report back with what I discover are the major components to this and whether there are likely to be more unknown components." or "In particular, this is the sort of task where the work to discover the problem and the correct approach to solve it is 90% of the battle. There unfortunately isn't a way to break that down ahead of time." Depending on whether it seemed like a task similar to one that I'd done before or not--or whether it was a bug-hunt.
  • swatcoder 8y ago
    Estimation is often challenging and sometimes impossible, but there are in fact many opportunities to deliver reliable estimates. If you'd genuinely like to learn more about estimating software projects and when you can do so more or less reliably, Steve McConnell's Software Estimation: Demystifying the Black Art provides a great survey of techniques. https://www.amazon.com/Software-Estimation-Demystifying-Developer-Practices/dp/0735605351 https://www.amazon.com/Software-Estimation-Demystifying-Deve...
    • afarrell 8y ago
      I bought that book about 4 years ago in an attempt to try to learn how to produce estimates for the sorts of tasks I might do in a given day as a software developer. I read through the first third of it and then skimmed the rest. Unless my memory has wildly deceived me, that book doesn't contain advice on how to do so. Rather, it assumes you know how to estimate ticket-level work and talks about how to estimate on the scale of months or quarters.
  • afarrell 8y ago
    Please do not downvote this comment. mikro2nd is expressing something that I've also felt and I have heard from multiple other engineers in the hallway track at conferences and in 1-on-1s. As such, even if you disagree with the opinion, it is still an important contribution to the discussion. If you believe that there is a reliable method for producing time-measured estimates which a software engineer can learn -- a method which is not magic but is merely work -- it would be highly valuable for you to lay that out here.
    • HeyLaughingBoy 8y ago
      Sure! Truly accurate time tracking and recording. Then using those historical times to inform future estimates. Most development we do is not the great unknown. If it took you 10 hours to design, code and test the update to a Student record for a db application last year in Java, it will likely take you roughly 10 hours this year to do something similar in the same language. The problem is that most organizations are unwilling to develop the rigor of recording time on task accurately and saving them in such a way that the times can be retrieved later, and using those recorded times to estimate future work. All of that takes effort and it's effort that's not billable to a project, so no one wants to do it. But when you do it, it does work!
  • amirathi 8y ago
    > A given feature/bugfix/whatever is gonna take as long as its gonna take. If this is every developers attitude how can the team make any plans about product roadmap? How would the team decide what to take on in a week/month/quarter? I'm a developer and I understand difficulties in estimating. I also know of poor leaders who use estimation trap to guilt developers into an impossible deadline. But this attitude is not helpful and will not fly in any good team. If you apply yourself to it consistently, estimation (with certain degree of error) is not impossible. I wrote practical tips somewhere else in this thread.
• AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  Pay attention to how long things actually take. Then, when you're estimating, you can say "This is about like X, and X took a month, so I'll estimate this as taking a month." That gives you a pretty decent estimate - as long as everybody remembers that it's an estimate. That assumes that you can find a good previous example. If you can't, you can't use this technique. One place that gets me is porting software. How long is it going to take? Depends on how many issues we find. How many will that be? I have no idea. Neither does anybody else. We'll know we're done when we're done.
• tomohawk 8y ago
  Practice, and follow a process that enables engineers to internalize the design as well as communicate it. For example FDD encourages creating an agile model that the team agrees to, and then creating a 3 level WBS for the next 3 months, with estimates. Give it a go, and then when you realize your team didn't do well the 1st time, call it and then try again. By the 3rd time you'll have built enough skill to start getting within a reasonable ballpark.
• sloaken 8y ago
  Lie: Tell management it will take twice as long as you think. Tell your staff they have half the time you feel they need.
  • afarrell 8y ago
    This is bad bad bad advice. You can't write maintainable software which serves medium-term business goals faster just by blasting Dragonforce louder and chugging more Jolt. If your engineers already think it will take X time, then thats a strong signal that it will take 1.2X-5X time. The value of estimation is that it lets you intelligently cut the scope of a project or focus your attention where it makes the most sense. Intentionally deluding yourself or your team is like trying to teach yourself how to write a virtual memory system after staying up for 36 hours straight. What business value is created by lying? What individual career value is created? None, just the destruction of trust.
  • BillBohan 8y ago
    I agree with afarrell that lying is not advisable. Lying is a very bad thing. Convincing someone else to do a bad thing is even worse. The method I used when I was Software Development Manager was to ask one of the programmers how long he thought it should take (or estimate it myself). Then I told management that it would take 3 times that long. We usually could make that deadline but it was often close and sometimes a little late. I have since learned that it will take PI times as long as you think. Telling the programmers that they have half as long does no good. They will not write code any faster. It may even distress them and a distressed programmer produces less code causing it to take longer. FYI Consider carefully what I say; my first computer program compiled and ran in the summer of 1967. I have typed in a program while both Bill Gates and Paul Allen watched over my shoulder. I'm retired now but still work daily on a subgame for minetest.
• afarrell 8y ago
  I have been frustrated by the lack of resources on how to estimate software tasks for the past 8 years and had essentially come to agree with micro2nd that estimation was impossible. I was, however, searching for some method which would turn it from [impossible task that I had no idea how to do or how to learn how to do or how to ask how to do] into merely difficult work. However, this past summer, I got a new manager who has had a goal of introducing estimation into the team and I've been working with him. The biggest thing I've learned so far is that if you're estimating by asking "how long will this take?" then you're asking the wrong question. To estimate, ask instead "What are the mile-markers?" The work of answering this is to go through the research process of determining what the task involves. This takes significant time and so it is still important to stand firm and resist the urge to give a number when someone asks you during a meeting if you haven't prepared. It also is still fallible and I'm honestly not all that practiced at it yet. However, at the end of it, you'll have mile-markers which provide the three pieces of real value from estimates: 1) A rough intuition for the level of complexity of the task. 2) An opportunity to notice when you can cut down the scope of something or when you should prepare for something by doing a small refactor. 3) A way to judge your velocity as you are doing the task. The third one is particularly important and can make guessing a number an actually-somewhat-useful activity. Why? You can guess numbers for the individual mile-markers and then, if after a while of working notice you are falling behind or moving faster, you can communicate with stakeholders. ---- When I've asked for advice on estimation, I've often been told "just gut-check yourself and multiply by 3. The important thing is to communicate when you think you might not hit the estimate." But if right after producing a single number and saying it, the alarm starts blaring in your head saying "I'm not going to be able to make that estimate." well... you'd feel silly "It will take two weeks. Oh I think its going to take longer than two weeks." and so you never have a point where it makes sense to raise a flag. But if you have mile-markers and a regular habit of checking yourself against them, then there is a defined point where you can raise an alarm.
• GFischer 8y ago
  It depends a LOT on what you're estimating. Estimating a CRUD line of business app is very much doable. On the other hand, estimating an innovative product using unproven tech or novel methods requires a proof of concept before even knowing feasibility. I worked with major consultancies, and the most serious gave you order-of-magnitude estimates, with iterating improvements on the estimation itself until you reached a +/- 15% estimation that was the best they could do. Very similar to: https://www.construx.com/software-thought-leadership/books/the-cone-of-uncertainty/ https://www.construx.com/software-thought-leadership/books/t... In those cases, it was a very reasonable estimate because they'd done very similar things before. One of those consultancies used an tool and they had measured their teams' velocity and were very confident on their estimates. For one of my own projects, we had to estimate a rewrite of an existing app (with slight improvements), which is as easy as it can get in regards to estimation. We used several approaches, the one that ended up being closest to reality was Steve McConnell's tool Construx Estimate (no longer available but you can find a mirror here: https://web.archive.org/web/20170920093850/https://www.construx.com/Thought_Leadership/Books/Survival_Guide/Resources_By_Chapter/Construx_Estimate/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170920093850/https://www.const... )
• OnlyRepliesToBS 8y ago
  how long does it take to make a civilization? how long does it take to get to the moon? estimates are irrelevant to actuality
• Jtsummers 8y ago
  1. For estimates to become effective (in software) you need to estimate a lot of tasks' sizes/complexities and then record how long they took. 2. You need familiarity with the type of system you're working on (whether it's new development or sustainment doesn't matter, you need to know the system). If the work is new, you will need to work on it for a period of time to learn how to estimate it. 3. Initially, your estimated sizes and times will be way off. Accept this. Record the estimated task size, record the final time taken (at least to the number of days needed). Run this through a stats package: You should see clusters, each size category should take around the same amount of time. If you see a size "small" or "1" taking as long as a "large" or "100", work on your size estimates. Once you get better at estimating the size, you'll be able to (more easily) estimate the time (within some confidence interval). I discourage estimating time directly ("Here's the task, I think it's 10 hours of work.") because you really don't know it. And everyone in my office that does the above and insists on estimating time (versus size/complexity) ends up using a multiplier against their time estimate after a couple years! That is, their time estimates become sizes after all. They keep calling it "100 hours" but then double it or halve it based on the statistical analysis above. Better to just call it a "10" and have the stats package spit out 200 hours or 50 hours or whatever is appropriate, eliminate the confusion. ============ For estimating longer term projects (not just tasks), you can do the above if you've worked with similar systems (or the system being maintained) for each of the tasks/features/bug fixes. String them together using a PERT chart (illustrating dependencies between these tasks and the path to your objective). This will give you a reasonable estimate for the overall project time. ============ Finally, because you're using stats and know your standard deviation, you don't give a precise target (100 hours). You give a range (100 hours +/- 10 hours). The more you (or your team) does the same kinds of work or work on the same systems, the tighter your bounds should become on your estimates.
• amirathi 8y ago
  Earlier this year, I wrote these tips to improve estimation: https://blog.amirathi.com/2018/02/05/science-of-software-estimation/ https://blog.amirathi.com/2018/02/05/science-of-software-est... I will summarize it here: - It's not just about code. New developers typically don't account time for testing, documentation, data migrations, backwards compatibility work and such - Spend a few hours to discover unknowns. Unknown unknowns can rattle the estimation big time whereas known unknowns can be factored into estimation with some upfront research. - Have a deeper conversation with product owners. Often you realize that some nice to have use case is taking 80% of the time and can be decoupled from the core feature. Win-Win.
• agarbayo 8y ago
  The first thing to keep in mind is that reasonable accuracy might never be achieved because of the nature of the problem. Social causes and bad process contribute to bad estimates. It’s not only the difficulty of guessing the unknown. Biases, guesses taken as deadlines and stakeholders trying to influence the estimation results contribute to worsening the problem. This article https://www.infoq.com/articles/software-development-effort-estimation https://www.infoq.com/articles/software-development-effort-e... written by a researcher at Simula Research Laboratory is one of the best summaries on the estate of software estimation. Simula has excellent research on estimation. I found particularly interesting the different biases that might affect us: the scale used, how the question is asked (introduces an anchor to your estimate), the size of the task estimated previously, etc. However, we can improve on gut feeling estimates and training on a personal level can reduce the uncertainty. A few highlights: - On a team level, planning poker is known to improve estimates. - Checklists (common forgotten activities) and historical data (% of time spent on unplanned or project management) tailored to your current project improve estimates. - Avoid early estimation based on incomplete data. Avoid exposure to irrelevant, misleading estimation information. - Break specs in tasks and estimate those tasks. Keep historical data on your estimates and final times and review them periodically. Automated time tracking tools for developers like https://www.codermirror.com/ https://www.codermirror.com/ can help in removing the burden of tracking coding times.
• afarrell 8y ago
  One thing just occurred to me: the most successful estimation exercise I've gone through so far actually involved me pair-estimating a project with my manager. I think this is generalizable: If you aren't sure how to do an estimate, the steps are: 0) Stand up straight and chamber your courage in order to be honest responding to the person who just asked you for an estimate. 1) Say: "I don't know how to produce estimates. I'm going to get a more senior engineer to pair with me on breaking down a project and producing an estimate for you." 2) Email your team lead about who would be a good person to sit down with you and go through the process of estimating the task. Tell her that you are going to do #3 Say you are looking to both answers the question you were asked and to talk you through the thought process so that you can learn to be good at producing useful estimates. Book like 30 minutes in the senior engineer's calendar. 3) Write your own draft where you first take the definition-of-done and make sure it is clear, then you turn the task into bullet points of what you can think of are the subcomponents of it. Don't produce times yet. 4) When you have the meeting with the senior engineer, be clear that you want to learn the thought process. If they say "I just go with my gut and multiply by 3" then say something about how their years of experience with estimates allows their intuition to be highly trained, but you need a more rigorous process to follow until your gut is similarly well-trained. (tip: read Thinking Fast and Slow) Ask if they can use their experience to help you think through your breakdown, spot missing subtasks, and put numbers on things. I've not actually tried steps #1 and #2, but I have done steps #3 then #4 together and they worked well. ======= If you think you'll get pushback on the idea of taking some time to go away and do the estimate, imagine yourself calling up an auto mechanic and saying "Hey, my 2010 Peugeot Ion is making a noise like a coffee grinder when I accelerate. Can you give me a quote for how much that costs to fix?" Then imagine refusing to let them take a look at it before they give you a quote.