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Italy has a messy history listening to and even jailing its scientists, as they go about the normal process of empiricism. https://www.nature.com/news/italian-s

Italy has a messy history listening to and even jailing its scientists, as they go about the normal process of empiricism. https://www.nature.com/news/italian-seismologists-cleared-of-manslaughter-1.16313 https://www.nature.com/news/italian-seismologists-cleared-of...

simias 8y ago
This particular story is embarrassing (although as your article points out, they were eventually cleared) but I don't think it's directly related to the problem at hand. Failing to heed the warnings of scientists is unfortunately not something we can stereotype on Italians alone...
- superflyguy 8y ago
  No, but this is unprecedented for a developed country. Yes, they were eventually cleared. Great. Some doubts remain but it cannot be proved beyond all reasonable doubt that they were witches. Not guilty!
  - YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
    I'm pretty sure the US is considered a developed country and it routinely ignores scientists' warnings about the climate and the environment in general.
    - arcticfox 8y ago
      Ignoring warnings != jailing scientists for failing to warn I'm embarrassed by the anti-science positions taken in the US but those are hardly the same magnitude
    - superflyguy 8y ago
      I'm not sure how you didn't pick up on the fact that this was not about scientists being ignored.
    - _eht 8y ago
      It’s actually not part of my routine at all, thanks.
    - Gravityloss 8y ago
      Charles Monnett was grilled by agents about his research. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Monnett https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Monnett Here's some original material: https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/species/mammals/polar_bear/pdfs/IG_Interview_with_Dr_Monnett.pdf https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/species/mammals/polar_be...
pseudolus 8y ago
There was actually an investigation of Italian scientists with respect to their alleged involvement with the spread of this particular plant disease. https://www.nature.com/news/italian-scientists-under-investigation-after-olive-tree-deaths-1.19078 https://www.nature.com/news/italian-scientists-under-investi...
syn0byte 8y ago
"Bertolaso said he was sending the scientists to L’Aquila to carry out “a media operation” in order to “shut up any imbecile,” most likely a reference to Gioacchino Giuliani, a technician at the nearby Gran Sasso physics laboratory who had reportedly raised a series of alarms about impending strong quakes in the weeks beforehand." Scientists, acting in a public service context, charged with negligence after a natural disaster they dismissed as unlikely resulted in 300+ deaths. That isn't the same as putting scientists on trail for reporting factual but inconvenient data. All their sentences were overturned as well. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/10/seven-year-legal-saga-ends-italian-official-cleared-manslaughter-earthquake-trial https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/10/seven-year-legal-sag...
- pif 8y ago
  > they dismissed as unlikely They didn't dismiss it! They only stated that imbecile Gioacchino Giuliani was talking out of nothing and people had better to ignore him. Earthquakes cannot yet be foreseen with an adequate precision. Fullstop. After the fact, judges were clearly overwhelmed with emotions when they forced themselves to read a mere pseudo-coincidence as an unknown genius researcher being silenced by the corrupt scientific elite. The judgement was overthrown in appeal, and the appeal outcome validated by supreme court, with the staement: il fatto non sussiste (there is no case).
grigjd3 8y ago
Italy's relationship with science is mired in corruption, enough so that Italian scientists often move away to find jobs.
- lbeltrame 8y ago
  > Italy's relationship with science is mired in corruption Not any more than any other countries. I've dealt with many people from all over Europe thanks to a particular project I was involved in, and bad behaviors were truly cross-country (misappropriation of results, pressure to change authorship, "games" to move funding to allies or away from enemies...). EDIT: What I mean is not that everyone is bad, but that rather bad behaviors even in my country are in the median with the others. As a disclaimer, I am a scientist that is still working in Italy.
gpderetta 8y ago
We (for small values of we) started early: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair
- onetimemanytime 8y ago
  Laws of gravity don't work in Italy either, Pope John XXI in 13th century had them declared null and void /heresy. That Pope that died when the roof collapsed on him. Seriously, Italy is an old fashioned country, full of corruption and cutting corners. Scientists do get in the way with facts and other nonsense :). That explains everything IMO.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    Laws of gravity don't work in Italy either, Pope John XXI in 13th century had them declared null and void /heresy. Smells like another internet-spread revisionist history rumor. His Wikipedia article makes him sound like a scientist, himself: "Wherever he studied, he concentrated on medicine, theology, logic, physics, metaphysics, and Aristotle's dialectic. He is traditionally and usually identified with the medical author Peter of Spain, an important figure in the development of logic and pharmacology." "To secure the necessary quiet for his medical studies, he had an apartment added to the papal palace at Viterbo, to which he could retire when he wished to work undisturbed." The Catholic Church, even in its early days, was/is loaded with scientists and scholars. The concept of the Church being anti-science is a more recent internet-fueled meme.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Laws of gravity don't work in Italy either, Pope John XXI in 13th century had them declared null and void /heresy. This is a distortion of a distortion (the original distortion popularized by Stephen Hawking was that John XXI declared laws of nature in general, not the law of gravity as such, to be heresy.) The actual fact is that John XXI declared the teaching of a contemporary faction that the laws of nature constrained the power of God was heresy.
gdhbcc 8y ago
That particular example is not a good one, since the scientists should be all rights have been convicted and punished for what they did. The overturning of the sentence was a miscarriage of justice driven by public opinion and media clickbait frenzy, not the facts. The truth of the matter is that the scientists were aware that they were in a situation of power over people, and in order to get people to stop annoying them with questions they lied and deceived people, which caused them to die. It's ok to be wrong. It's ok to not know everything. It is not ok to kill people by telling them that they are safe to go back to their homes when you know you have no idea, nor data to support that statement.
lbeltrame 8y ago
The problem was not only related to the (ridicolous) attempt to indict, but rather with the fact that nowadays in my country (at least for the media), being prosecuted means you are guilty. Another, equally embarassing story (a little off-topic in the context of olive oil ;) is the prosecution of Ilaria Capua (another scientist who had a bad encounter with the justice system).
mturmon 8y ago
This is not really a good example, because the government official who headed that commission was indeed using the "scientific" process to reach a pre-decided conclusion. The story you linked lays it all out, but it can't really be reduced to "jailing its scientists".

simias 8y ago

This particular story is embarrassing (although as your article points out, they were eventually cleared) but I don't think it's directly related to the problem at hand. Failing to heed the warnings of scientists is unfortunately not something we can stereotype on Italians alone...

superflyguy 8y ago
No, but this is unprecedented for a developed country. Yes, they were eventually cleared. Great. Some doubts remain but it cannot be proved beyond all reasonable doubt that they were witches. Not guilty!
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
  I'm pretty sure the US is considered a developed country and it routinely ignores scientists' warnings about the climate and the environment in general.
  - arcticfox 8y ago
    Ignoring warnings != jailing scientists for failing to warn I'm embarrassed by the anti-science positions taken in the US but those are hardly the same magnitude
  - superflyguy 8y ago
    I'm not sure how you didn't pick up on the fact that this was not about scientists being ignored.
  - _eht 8y ago
    It’s actually not part of my routine at all, thanks.
  - Gravityloss 8y ago
    Charles Monnett was grilled by agents about his research. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Monnett https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Monnett Here's some original material: https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/species/mammals/polar_bear/pdfs/IG_Interview_with_Dr_Monnett.pdf https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/species/mammals/polar_be...

pseudolus 8y ago

There was actually an investigation of Italian scientists with respect to their alleged involvement with the spread of this particular plant disease. https://www.nature.com/news/italian-scientists-under-investigation-after-olive-tree-deaths-1.19078 https://www.nature.com/news/italian-scientists-under-investi...

syn0byte 8y ago

"Bertolaso said he was sending the scientists to L’Aquila to carry out “a media operation” in order to “shut up any imbecile,” most likely a reference to Gioacchino Giuliani, a technician at the nearby Gran Sasso physics laboratory who had reportedly raised a series of alarms about impending strong quakes in the weeks beforehand." Scientists, acting in a public service context, charged with negligence after a natural disaster they dismissed as unlikely resulted in 300+ deaths. That isn't the same as putting scientists on trail for reporting factual but inconvenient data. All their sentences were overturned as well. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/10/seven-year-legal-saga-ends-italian-official-cleared-manslaughter-earthquake-trial https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/10/seven-year-legal-sag...

pif 8y ago
> they dismissed as unlikely They didn't dismiss it! They only stated that imbecile Gioacchino Giuliani was talking out of nothing and people had better to ignore him. Earthquakes cannot yet be foreseen with an adequate precision. Fullstop. After the fact, judges were clearly overwhelmed with emotions when they forced themselves to read a mere pseudo-coincidence as an unknown genius researcher being silenced by the corrupt scientific elite. The judgement was overthrown in appeal, and the appeal outcome validated by supreme court, with the staement: il fatto non sussiste (there is no case).

grigjd3 8y ago

Italy's relationship with science is mired in corruption, enough so that Italian scientists often move away to find jobs.

lbeltrame 8y ago
> Italy's relationship with science is mired in corruption Not any more than any other countries. I've dealt with many people from all over Europe thanks to a particular project I was involved in, and bad behaviors were truly cross-country (misappropriation of results, pressure to change authorship, "games" to move funding to allies or away from enemies...). EDIT: What I mean is not that everyone is bad, but that rather bad behaviors even in my country are in the median with the others. As a disclaimer, I am a scientist that is still working in Italy.

gpderetta 8y ago

We (for small values of we) started early: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

onetimemanytime 8y ago
Laws of gravity don't work in Italy either, Pope John XXI in 13th century had them declared null and void /heresy. That Pope that died when the roof collapsed on him. Seriously, Italy is an old fashioned country, full of corruption and cutting corners. Scientists do get in the way with facts and other nonsense :). That explains everything IMO.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  Laws of gravity don't work in Italy either, Pope John XXI in 13th century had them declared null and void /heresy. Smells like another internet-spread revisionist history rumor. His Wikipedia article makes him sound like a scientist, himself: "Wherever he studied, he concentrated on medicine, theology, logic, physics, metaphysics, and Aristotle's dialectic. He is traditionally and usually identified with the medical author Peter of Spain, an important figure in the development of logic and pharmacology." "To secure the necessary quiet for his medical studies, he had an apartment added to the papal palace at Viterbo, to which he could retire when he wished to work undisturbed." The Catholic Church, even in its early days, was/is loaded with scientists and scholars. The concept of the Church being anti-science is a more recent internet-fueled meme.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Laws of gravity don't work in Italy either, Pope John XXI in 13th century had them declared null and void /heresy. This is a distortion of a distortion (the original distortion popularized by Stephen Hawking was that John XXI declared laws of nature in general, not the law of gravity as such, to be heresy.) The actual fact is that John XXI declared the teaching of a contemporary faction that the laws of nature constrained the power of God was heresy.

gdhbcc 8y ago

That particular example is not a good one, since the scientists should be all rights have been convicted and punished for what they did. The overturning of the sentence was a miscarriage of justice driven by public opinion and media clickbait frenzy, not the facts. The truth of the matter is that the scientists were aware that they were in a situation of power over people, and in order to get people to stop annoying them with questions they lied and deceived people, which caused them to die. It's ok to be wrong. It's ok to not know everything. It is not ok to kill people by telling them that they are safe to go back to their homes when you know you have no idea, nor data to support that statement.

lbeltrame 8y ago

The problem was not only related to the (ridicolous) attempt to indict, but rather with the fact that nowadays in my country (at least for the media), being prosecuted means you are guilty. Another, equally embarassing story (a little off-topic in the context of olive oil ;) is the prosecution of Ilaria Capua (another scientist who had a bad encounter with the justice system).

mturmon 8y ago

This is not really a good example, because the government official who headed that commission was indeed using the "scientific" process to reach a pre-decided conclusion. The story you linked lays it all out, but it can't really be reduced to "jailing its scientists".