5 ms·

Wikipedia has an excellent article on this under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination. Essenti

Wikipedia has an excellent article on this under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination. Essentially, the system used to recruit candidates into the Imperial Chinese state bureaucracy was an-ever-more-elaborate progression of less- and less-relevant testing, and more- and more-gamable (and expensive) testing. If you thought getting quizzed about FizzBuzz was bad, imagine getting quizzed about Beowulf with the same degree of seriousness. "Intense pressure to succeed meant that cheating and corruption were rampant, often outrunning strenuous attempts to prevent or defeat them." "In the 19th century, critics blamed the imperial system, and in the process its examinations, for China's lack of technical knowledge and its defeat by foreign powers." This doesn't amount to any huge revelation to many of us when we're seeking jobs, nor any comfort, really. Maybe a little bit of solace that the coding interview you inexplicably failed, which had the trappings of a serious attempt to gauge your fit, but the actual behind-the-scenes decision-making progress involved the finesse you'd expect from a group of blindfolded monkeys throwing darts, will eventually pay a dividend for all the fat dumb and happy juggernauts in the bay. Amazon may be the Sears of the 21st century, but I strongly suspect it and its cohort will meet the same fate a century later and for the same reasons.

ricardoreis 8y ago
You've nailed the psychological and intellectual rot at the heart of the tech interviewing craze quite eloquently. Thank you.
ud0 8y ago
Truer words have never been spoken.
watwut 8y ago
FizzBuzz is relevant to job. People complaining about izzBuzz havent had the pleasure of working with someone able to talk about development well while being unable to write simple code. Problem of FizzBUzz is that it is too easy, so folks get insulted. I have worked who are totally passionate and read all the blogs and can talk about all new buzzwords and techniques. Who simultaneously had problem write simple code. That is incomparable to Beowulf.
- bluGill 8y ago
  In the past one of my bosses said he the most valuable thing to asking someone claiming to know C++ was "How do you make a class member that cannot be accessed outside the class". If you know anything about C++ you know the one word answer, yet many so called programmers can't get that far.
  - someguydave 8y ago
    That’s a good idea. I interview programmers and I’m pretty sure some would fail that question. What I don’t get: why put C++ on your resume if you don’t even know the basics?
    - nobleach 8y ago
      If I had to guess, it's the "I'll figure it out" mentality. The problem here is, with C++, you probably will NOT figure it out! I did the bare minimum C++ in my classes. I can write trivial little "code challenge" type things with it. (mostly imperative style, very basic OO) But, ask me anything about Templates, etc, and I'll quickly admit you've gone beyond my knowledge. I'm intrigued at the answer to this question though....
      - bluGill 8y ago
        Actually a great programmer will figure C++ out fast enough for most purposes. Templates are weird and hard, but a great programmer can figure them out. However if you don't have a several years of experience you will make mistakes, so I can't hire you as the next go-to expert in the difficult corner cases of C++ that sometimes we can't avoid (though as we move to modern c++14 there are a lot less of them) If you lie on your resume and I catch you that is an important red flag because I no longer no what else I can trust you on.
        nobleach 8y ago
        I think that's where I was coming from: "if you don't have several years...." I learned enough C++ in school to complete my assignments. But the C++ PRs I've reviewed contain FAR more than those rudimentary basics. When looking at Rust, it brought back some of those memories. (`using` vs `uses`, etc) I'd never DARE say I "know" C++ well enough to be useful.
brookhaven_dude 8y ago
Perhaps employers not only want the best coders, but also look for traits that enable some to game the system - like having the willpower and discipline to practice and get good at these types of questions.
- mchannon 8y ago
  Doy. The point of the post was that they were/are optimizing for the wrong things. Some people watch "Are you smarter than a 5th grader?" and chuckle when they realize they're not. A smaller subset of people take it to the next level and (would) hire the 5th grader instead of the adult to do an adult's job. Life's not a game show, but some (most?) of us forget that when we conduct interviews.

ricardoreis 8y ago

You've nailed the psychological and intellectual rot at the heart of the tech interviewing craze quite eloquently. Thank you.

ud0 8y ago

Truer words have never been spoken.

watwut 8y ago

FizzBuzz is relevant to job. People complaining about izzBuzz havent had the pleasure of working with someone able to talk about development well while being unable to write simple code. Problem of FizzBUzz is that it is too easy, so folks get insulted. I have worked who are totally passionate and read all the blogs and can talk about all new buzzwords and techniques. Who simultaneously had problem write simple code. That is incomparable to Beowulf.

bluGill 8y ago
In the past one of my bosses said he the most valuable thing to asking someone claiming to know C++ was "How do you make a class member that cannot be accessed outside the class". If you know anything about C++ you know the one word answer, yet many so called programmers can't get that far.
- someguydave 8y ago
  That’s a good idea. I interview programmers and I’m pretty sure some would fail that question. What I don’t get: why put C++ on your resume if you don’t even know the basics?
  - nobleach 8y ago
    If I had to guess, it's the "I'll figure it out" mentality. The problem here is, with C++, you probably will NOT figure it out! I did the bare minimum C++ in my classes. I can write trivial little "code challenge" type things with it. (mostly imperative style, very basic OO) But, ask me anything about Templates, etc, and I'll quickly admit you've gone beyond my knowledge. I'm intrigued at the answer to this question though....
    - bluGill 8y ago
      Actually a great programmer will figure C++ out fast enough for most purposes. Templates are weird and hard, but a great programmer can figure them out. However if you don't have a several years of experience you will make mistakes, so I can't hire you as the next go-to expert in the difficult corner cases of C++ that sometimes we can't avoid (though as we move to modern c++14 there are a lot less of them) If you lie on your resume and I catch you that is an important red flag because I no longer no what else I can trust you on.
      - nobleach 8y ago
        I think that's where I was coming from: "if you don't have several years...." I learned enough C++ in school to complete my assignments. But the C++ PRs I've reviewed contain FAR more than those rudimentary basics. When looking at Rust, it brought back some of those memories. (`using` vs `uses`, etc) I'd never DARE say I "know" C++ well enough to be useful.

brookhaven_dude 8y ago

Perhaps employers not only want the best coders, but also look for traits that enable some to game the system - like having the willpower and discipline to practice and get good at these types of questions.

mchannon 8y ago
Doy. The point of the post was that they were/are optimizing for the wrong things. Some people watch "Are you smarter than a 5th grader?" and chuckle when they realize they're not. A smaller subset of people take it to the next level and (would) hire the 5th grader instead of the adult to do an adult's job. Life's not a game show, but some (most?) of us forget that when we conduct interviews.