4 ms·

Graduation rates as they are, college access is probably too high. Increasing selectivity would prevent the waste of time and money on programs people aren’t eq

Graduation rates as they are, college access is probably too high. Increasing selectivity would prevent the waste of time and money on programs people aren’t equipped to complete.

chiefalchemist 8y ago
You can't expect the edus to say no to easy money. And the students are raised to think they are entitled tto success, whether they are cut out for that path or not. It's PC to say "everybody gets a degree." The reality is, that's a very expensive empty promise.
- sjg007 8y ago
  We should really improve K-12 education. The fact that kids are not qualified for college after 18 years in public school is a travesty.
  - cdoxsey 8y ago
    The fact that so many jobs require a college degree is a travesty. We should get teenagers into the workforce sooner and provide more relevant and on-the-job training.
    - chiefalchemist 8y ago
      Thos jobs will be replaced by AI. But let me see a Roomba fix your broken toilet.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  - chiefalchemist 8y ago
    It's not that they're not qualified. They're just not college material __and__ there's not enough mid / highend jobs for them. At the same time, the trades are hurting for good people. But the entitled are too good to be fully employed. They'd rather taken on debt. Given where AI is headed the higher edu route is not going to improve. Yet BHO, who knows better, kept beating the "higher edu for all" drum.
    - lotsofpulp 8y ago
      They're not entitled, they’re just not being compensated enough to do labor which has quite a bit of negative effects on your health and quality of life compared to office jobs. Once you see people opting for the trades, then you will know they are getting proper compensation.
      - chiefalchemist 8y ago
        The trades aren't __that__ dangerous. Certainly not any more dangerous than sitting at a desk all day, stressed out, and putting on 30 - 50+ lbs. That sedentary lifestyle will kill you.
        michaelt 8y ago
        If you think being an office worker is more dangerous than being a roofer or a logger or a farmer, I can tell you I've just checked the statistics and actually such jobs are comparatively more dangerous.
  - closeparen 8y ago
    That any kids still have the curiosity and intrinsic motivation to thrive in college after 13 years in public school is a miracle.
  - chiefalchemist 8y ago
    It's not they aren't qualify. It's that they are not wired (think personality type) for typical, mainstream, status quo, (typically) office / lab work. Yet, the fact is, knowing this, we as a culture continue to insist square pegs force themselves into round holes. Drugs use is up? Depression / mental illness is up? Perhaps we open our eyes (and minds) to helping young adults becomes something that's meaningful - and career worthy - to them instead of forcing them down a path they don't want to go. The fact that a fair percentage of people end up __not__ working in their major 10 years down the road seems to be saying something as well.
- CalRobert 8y ago
  "...entitled tto success..." It's not being entitled to success, it's terror at being a complete and utter loser, because we spend eighteen years drumming "if you don't go to college you'll be dirt poor, live in a van down by the river, and flip burgers" in to their heads. You're told constantly that if you don't go to college you're utter scum. Of course, the implication that flipping burgers is shameful is something we should address. We might also consider telling kids about all the successful career paths that don't require college - if my kid were looking at US levels of student debt I'd be suggesting plumbing, metal fabrication, etc. like crazy. You don't need to go to college to learn CNC, and the debt incurred going to college can destroy your life and robs the world of a creative, risk-taking individual. How many people would be making great things or solving the big problems of our time but instead are doing bullshit jobs because they have an enormous mountain of debt?
  - closeparen 8y ago
    Scum or not, the difference in outcomes is real [0]. Cultural memes about the importance of college are one part of how middle-class-ness is made to stick. The other part is money. For better or worse, the social contract is that education is paid forward across generations, from the middle class to their own children and from the rich to everyone. Crushing student debt load is the scar tissue that forms when when that social contract is violated, and a child receives the value system without the 529 account. No one should want their child to be buried in a six-figure debt. But the answer, at least on the median HN reader's salary, is to save and invest 4-5 figures over each of your child's 18 years. That is what universities will expect when deciding what to charge you, and what the government endorsed when creating tax-advantaged accounts for that purpose. I guess you could say "Not fair!" but the families that do this outperform the ones that don't, by wider and wider margins, and that right there is "rising inequality." Just a few years out, my parents' investment has paid off handsomely. They don't want it back. They want it paid forward to my own kids. Morality notwithstanding, this particular belief system seems to be a winning a strategy. [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/233301/median-household-income-in-the-united-states-by-education/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/233301/median-household-...
    - 8y ago

Graduation rates as they are, college access is probably too high. Increasing selectivity would prevent the waste of time and money on programs people aren’t equipped to complete.

chiefalchemist 8y ago

You can't expect the edus to say no to easy money. And the students are raised to think they are entitled tto success, whether they are cut out for that path or not. It's PC to say "everybody gets a degree." The reality is, that's a very expensive empty promise.

sjg007 8y ago
We should really improve K-12 education. The fact that kids are not qualified for college after 18 years in public school is a travesty.
- cdoxsey 8y ago
  The fact that so many jobs require a college degree is a travesty. We should get teenagers into the workforce sooner and provide more relevant and on-the-job training.
  - chiefalchemist 8y ago
    Thos jobs will be replaced by AI. But let me see a Roomba fix your broken toilet.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- chiefalchemist 8y ago
  It's not that they're not qualified. They're just not college material __and__ there's not enough mid / highend jobs for them. At the same time, the trades are hurting for good people. But the entitled are too good to be fully employed. They'd rather taken on debt. Given where AI is headed the higher edu route is not going to improve. Yet BHO, who knows better, kept beating the "higher edu for all" drum.
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    They're not entitled, they’re just not being compensated enough to do labor which has quite a bit of negative effects on your health and quality of life compared to office jobs. Once you see people opting for the trades, then you will know they are getting proper compensation.
    - chiefalchemist 8y ago
      The trades aren't __that__ dangerous. Certainly not any more dangerous than sitting at a desk all day, stressed out, and putting on 30 - 50+ lbs. That sedentary lifestyle will kill you.
      - michaelt 8y ago
        If you think being an office worker is more dangerous than being a roofer or a logger or a farmer, I can tell you I've just checked the statistics and actually such jobs are comparatively more dangerous.
- closeparen 8y ago
  That any kids still have the curiosity and intrinsic motivation to thrive in college after 13 years in public school is a miracle.
- chiefalchemist 8y ago
  It's not they aren't qualify. It's that they are not wired (think personality type) for typical, mainstream, status quo, (typically) office / lab work. Yet, the fact is, knowing this, we as a culture continue to insist square pegs force themselves into round holes. Drugs use is up? Depression / mental illness is up? Perhaps we open our eyes (and minds) to helping young adults becomes something that's meaningful - and career worthy - to them instead of forcing them down a path they don't want to go. The fact that a fair percentage of people end up __not__ working in their major 10 years down the road seems to be saying something as well.
CalRobert 8y ago
"...entitled tto success..." It's not being entitled to success, it's terror at being a complete and utter loser, because we spend eighteen years drumming "if you don't go to college you'll be dirt poor, live in a van down by the river, and flip burgers" in to their heads. You're told constantly that if you don't go to college you're utter scum. Of course, the implication that flipping burgers is shameful is something we should address. We might also consider telling kids about all the successful career paths that don't require college - if my kid were looking at US levels of student debt I'd be suggesting plumbing, metal fabrication, etc. like crazy. You don't need to go to college to learn CNC, and the debt incurred going to college can destroy your life and robs the world of a creative, risk-taking individual. How many people would be making great things or solving the big problems of our time but instead are doing bullshit jobs because they have an enormous mountain of debt?
- closeparen 8y ago
  Scum or not, the difference in outcomes is real [0]. Cultural memes about the importance of college are one part of how middle-class-ness is made to stick. The other part is money. For better or worse, the social contract is that education is paid forward across generations, from the middle class to their own children and from the rich to everyone. Crushing student debt load is the scar tissue that forms when when that social contract is violated, and a child receives the value system without the 529 account. No one should want their child to be buried in a six-figure debt. But the answer, at least on the median HN reader's salary, is to save and invest 4-5 figures over each of your child's 18 years. That is what universities will expect when deciding what to charge you, and what the government endorsed when creating tax-advantaged accounts for that purpose. I guess you could say "Not fair!" but the families that do this outperform the ones that don't, by wider and wider margins, and that right there is "rising inequality." Just a few years out, my parents' investment has paid off handsomely. They don't want it back. They want it paid forward to my own kids. Morality notwithstanding, this particular belief system seems to be a winning a strategy. [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/233301/median-household-income-in-the-united-states-by-education/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/233301/median-household-...
  - 8y ago