6 ms·

Star Forts

64 points by spawarotti 8y ago

TallGuyShort 8y ago
Fascinating! Castle of Good Hope is another example that I don't see listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_of_Good_Hope#/media/File:Kasteel_de_Goede_Hoop_circa_1680.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_of_Good_Hope#/media/Fil.... Thought of it as soon as I heard the title but never knew it was a trend or such a practical design.
- frankharv 8y ago
  I notice they left off the most historic fort in my area. Fort Monroe is a 7 pointed star fort at the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Monroe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Monroe
  - frankharv 8y ago
    I don't know what kind of people run this place but everything in my post is the same as all the others. Some kind of inferiority complex at work. This place seems full of bullies. Facts are inconvenient huh. Could be racists here as Fort Monroe accepted any slaves who could make it there. It is also the largest stone fort in the US. Maybe moderators should read a history book instead of thread bullying.
    - TallGuyShort 8y ago
      What bullying are you talking about?
markbnj 8y ago
Not an expert, but I think these are forts rather than castles. I would describe a castle as the stronghold of a noble, with a form that evolved from iron age hillforts and progressed to the great citadels and their massive towers in the 13th and 14th centuries CE, just before the development of effective artillery rendered them obsolete. Forts on the other hand are rather more an expression of centralized state power and a professional standing military. I didn't look at the dates on all of the depicted forts but I would expect them to be 17th to early 19th century CE.
- boomboomsubban 8y ago
  From the intro >Historians enjoy debating the scope of the word, but usually accept a castle to be the private fortified residence of a monarch or nobleman. This definition excludes fortresses, which were not homes, and also fortified towns, which were public defences rather than private residences. Taking a little licence we can extend the definition to buildings that might not technically qualify under this definition
Hasknewbie 8y ago
Nicosia, the capital of Cyprus (specifically, its city center) is essentially a giant star fort. The fortification walls are visible from a satellite view: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Walled+Old+City,+Nicosia,+Cyprus/@35.1757458,33.3550179,3863m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x14de17443c2304b9:0x8ed6d4d80f21bce8!8m2!3d35.1745446!4d33.3626418 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Walled+Old+City,+Nicosia,+...
- JoachimS 8y ago
  I think quite few cities in Europe either has some remnants of a star fort solution in their city plan, or a regular star fort. In Sweden the central part of the city of Gothenburg still has parts of the star fort left: https://goo.gl/maps/hsn3fQWB61B2 https://goo.gl/maps/hsn3fQWB61B2 And the castle of Landskrona has multiple layers of star fort shaped moats and walls. https://goo.gl/maps/aAAb2fACJDt https://goo.gl/maps/aAAb2fACJDt
iaw 8y ago
Fun fact: the base of the Statue of Liberty is a star fort named "Fort Wood" [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Island#Fort_Wood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Island#Fort_Wood
- benj111 8y ago
  I had noticed the design and had assumed it was an example of military fashion leading civilian fashion. Thanks
  - iaw 8y ago
    This quick video[1] is where I heard it, it has some other fun facts about the development of liberty island. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgZ1f4ACZBQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgZ1f4ACZBQ
benj111 8y ago
What was the effectiveness of these forts? They look quite beautiful, to the point that I'm starting to wonder if it's a case of form over function. I get that the 'legs' of the star are supposed to A. Cover the other 'legs' at close quarters, and B. Create an angled surface for shot to bounce off.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- lloeki 8y ago
  > What was the effectiveness of these forts? Very, until firepower significantly increased and powerful long range direct hits with piercing high explosive shells as well as ballistic shots (mortar, long range artillery) would just render the defence moot. From the article: > Fortifications of this type continued to be effective while the attackers were armed only with cannons, where the majority of the damage inflicted was caused by momentum from the impact of solid shot. While only low explosives such as black powder were available, explosive shells were largely ineffective against such fortifications. The development of mortars, high explosives, and the consequent large increase in the destructive power of explosive shells. Plunging fire rendered the intricate geometry of such fortifications irrelevant. Warfare was to become more mobile You can see this in WW1 (e.g battle of Verdun), where battlefields and front lines are very spread out and mobile[0], and key points like forts[1] are out of town, have much simpler geometry, and are dug deep to protect from artillery. Also, growing use of reinforced concrete. Trivia: there was a level on C&C 3 (GDI Mission 10, Sarajevo) that I remember playing and as the map unfolded I saw that this was actually sort of a Vauban fort! [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verdun#/media/File:Ground_captured_by_the_German_5th_Army,_Verdun,_February_to_June_1916.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verdun#/media/File:G... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verdun#/media/File:Fort_Douaumont_Anfang_1916.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verdun#/media/File:F... [2]: https://youtu.be/hPmhXC41mUQ?t=1575 https://youtu.be/hPmhXC41mUQ?t=1575
- nhebb 8y ago
  > What was the effectiveness of these forts? James Burke covered this a bit in episode 9 of Connections (about 4 minutes in): https://archive.org/details/james-burke-connections_s01e09 https://archive.org/details/james-burke-connections_s01e09
yesenadam 8y ago
Great page. Gee, I wish I'd read that before I read Tristram Shandy. Ravelins, hornwork, glacis etc etc get a lot of mentions from Tristram's fortification-obsessed Uncle Toby. Somehow the joke never gets old, even not knowing what they are.
- lkrubner 8y ago
  Did you read Tristram Shandy to the end? I read the first 400 pages and then I gave up. And up till this moment, I'm the only person I knew who got that far.
seanhunter 8y ago
For people in the UK, Star Castle in the Scilly Isles is worth a visit http://www.castlesfortsbattles.co.uk/south_west/star_castle.html http://www.castlesfortsbattles.co.uk/south_west/star_castle....
- arethuza 8y ago
  Fort George as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_George,_Highland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_George,_Highland
  - twic 8y ago
    There's one in Tilbury, just outside London: https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/tilbury-fort/ https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/tilbury-for... But there's not much else in Tilbury, so i've never been.
Aardwolf 8y ago
There's a whole belt of those around Antwerp (at least the moats usually remain). This zooms to just a few of them: https://www.google.com/maps/search/fort/@51.1701871,4.3942394,14.5z https://www.google.com/maps/search/fort/@51.1701871,4.394239...
- 24gttghh 8y ago
  The is yet another belt that loops from Bornem to Putte as well! https://www.google.com/maps/search/fort/@51.2143117,4.4889751,10.75z/data=!4m2!2m1!6e1 https://www.google.com/maps/search/fort/@51.2143117,4.488975...
- 24gttghh 8y ago
  In case you're interested in their original placement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_the_Sea#/media/File:DEFENCE_OF_ANTWERP.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_the_Sea#/media/File:DE...
numbsafari 8y ago
My wife and I spent about two months driving around europe living in a "caravan/camping car/vonmobile" (small, class-B-ish RV) and had the opportunity to stay in both Carcassonne and Neuf-Brisach. Neuf-Brisach is an examplar star-fort, with a beautiful, calm, country feel to it. There is a lot to be said for the design of European towns compared to those in the US. If you are planning to go to the Yucatan over the winter, a quick trip to Valladolid will give you an easy impression. The closest I've seen in the US is downtown Charlottesville, VA. Curious if anyone here has found anything else in the US with a similar, car-free town center with mixed-use zoning.

64 points by spawarotti 8y ago

Fascinating! Castle of Good Hope is another example that I don't see listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_of_Good_Hope#/media/File:Kasteel_de_Goede_Hoop_circa_1680.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_of_Good_Hope#/media/Fil.... Thought of it as soon as I heard the title but never knew it was a trend or such a practical design.

frankharv 8y ago
I notice they left off the most historic fort in my area. Fort Monroe is a 7 pointed star fort at the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Monroe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Monroe
- frankharv 8y ago
  I don't know what kind of people run this place but everything in my post is the same as all the others. Some kind of inferiority complex at work. This place seems full of bullies. Facts are inconvenient huh. Could be racists here as Fort Monroe accepted any slaves who could make it there. It is also the largest stone fort in the US. Maybe moderators should read a history book instead of thread bullying.
  - TallGuyShort 8y ago
    What bullying are you talking about?

markbnj 8y ago

Not an expert, but I think these are forts rather than castles. I would describe a castle as the stronghold of a noble, with a form that evolved from iron age hillforts and progressed to the great citadels and their massive towers in the 13th and 14th centuries CE, just before the development of effective artillery rendered them obsolete. Forts on the other hand are rather more an expression of centralized state power and a professional standing military. I didn't look at the dates on all of the depicted forts but I would expect them to be 17th to early 19th century CE.

boomboomsubban 8y ago
From the intro >Historians enjoy debating the scope of the word, but usually accept a castle to be the private fortified residence of a monarch or nobleman. This definition excludes fortresses, which were not homes, and also fortified towns, which were public defences rather than private residences. Taking a little licence we can extend the definition to buildings that might not technically qualify under this definition

Hasknewbie 8y ago

Nicosia, the capital of Cyprus (specifically, its city center) is essentially a giant star fort. The fortification walls are visible from a satellite view: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Walled+Old+City,+Nicosia,+Cyprus/@35.1757458,33.3550179,3863m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x14de17443c2304b9:0x8ed6d4d80f21bce8!8m2!3d35.1745446!4d33.3626418 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Walled+Old+City,+Nicosia,+...

JoachimS 8y ago
I think quite few cities in Europe either has some remnants of a star fort solution in their city plan, or a regular star fort. In Sweden the central part of the city of Gothenburg still has parts of the star fort left: https://goo.gl/maps/hsn3fQWB61B2 https://goo.gl/maps/hsn3fQWB61B2 And the castle of Landskrona has multiple layers of star fort shaped moats and walls. https://goo.gl/maps/aAAb2fACJDt https://goo.gl/maps/aAAb2fACJDt

iaw 8y ago

Fun fact: the base of the Statue of Liberty is a star fort named "Fort Wood" [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Island#Fort_Wood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Island#Fort_Wood

benj111 8y ago
I had noticed the design and had assumed it was an example of military fashion leading civilian fashion. Thanks
- iaw 8y ago
  This quick video[1] is where I heard it, it has some other fun facts about the development of liberty island. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgZ1f4ACZBQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgZ1f4ACZBQ

benj111 8y ago

What was the effectiveness of these forts? They look quite beautiful, to the point that I'm starting to wonder if it's a case of form over function. I get that the 'legs' of the star are supposed to A. Cover the other 'legs' at close quarters, and B. Create an angled surface for shot to bounce off.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
lloeki 8y ago
> What was the effectiveness of these forts? Very, until firepower significantly increased and powerful long range direct hits with piercing high explosive shells as well as ballistic shots (mortar, long range artillery) would just render the defence moot. From the article: > Fortifications of this type continued to be effective while the attackers were armed only with cannons, where the majority of the damage inflicted was caused by momentum from the impact of solid shot. While only low explosives such as black powder were available, explosive shells were largely ineffective against such fortifications. The development of mortars, high explosives, and the consequent large increase in the destructive power of explosive shells. Plunging fire rendered the intricate geometry of such fortifications irrelevant. Warfare was to become more mobile You can see this in WW1 (e.g battle of Verdun), where battlefields and front lines are very spread out and mobile[0], and key points like forts[1] are out of town, have much simpler geometry, and are dug deep to protect from artillery. Also, growing use of reinforced concrete. Trivia: there was a level on C&C 3 (GDI Mission 10, Sarajevo) that I remember playing and as the map unfolded I saw that this was actually sort of a Vauban fort! [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verdun#/media/File:Ground_captured_by_the_German_5th_Army,_Verdun,_February_to_June_1916.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verdun#/media/File:G... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verdun#/media/File:Fort_Douaumont_Anfang_1916.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verdun#/media/File:F... [2]: https://youtu.be/hPmhXC41mUQ?t=1575 https://youtu.be/hPmhXC41mUQ?t=1575
nhebb 8y ago
> What was the effectiveness of these forts? James Burke covered this a bit in episode 9 of Connections (about 4 minutes in): https://archive.org/details/james-burke-connections_s01e09 https://archive.org/details/james-burke-connections_s01e09

yesenadam 8y ago

Great page. Gee, I wish I'd read that before I read Tristram Shandy. Ravelins, hornwork, glacis etc etc get a lot of mentions from Tristram's fortification-obsessed Uncle Toby. Somehow the joke never gets old, even not knowing what they are.

lkrubner 8y ago
Did you read Tristram Shandy to the end? I read the first 400 pages and then I gave up. And up till this moment, I'm the only person I knew who got that far.

seanhunter 8y ago

For people in the UK, Star Castle in the Scilly Isles is worth a visit http://www.castlesfortsbattles.co.uk/south_west/star_castle.html http://www.castlesfortsbattles.co.uk/south_west/star_castle....

arethuza 8y ago
Fort George as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_George,_Highland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_George,_Highland
- twic 8y ago
  There's one in Tilbury, just outside London: https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/tilbury-fort/ https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/tilbury-for... But there's not much else in Tilbury, so i've never been.

Aardwolf 8y ago

There's a whole belt of those around Antwerp (at least the moats usually remain). This zooms to just a few of them: https://www.google.com/maps/search/fort/@51.1701871,4.3942394,14.5z https://www.google.com/maps/search/fort/@51.1701871,4.394239...

24gttghh 8y ago
The is yet another belt that loops from Bornem to Putte as well! https://www.google.com/maps/search/fort/@51.2143117,4.4889751,10.75z/data=!4m2!2m1!6e1 https://www.google.com/maps/search/fort/@51.2143117,4.488975...
24gttghh 8y ago
In case you're interested in their original placement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_the_Sea#/media/File:DEFENCE_OF_ANTWERP.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_the_Sea#/media/File:DE...

numbsafari 8y ago

My wife and I spent about two months driving around europe living in a "caravan/camping car/vonmobile" (small, class-B-ish RV) and had the opportunity to stay in both Carcassonne and Neuf-Brisach. Neuf-Brisach is an examplar star-fort, with a beautiful, calm, country feel to it. There is a lot to be said for the design of European towns compared to those in the US. If you are planning to go to the Yucatan over the winter, a quick trip to Valladolid will give you an easy impression. The closest I've seen in the US is downtown Charlottesville, VA. Curious if anyone here has found anything else in the US with a similar, car-free town center with mixed-use zoning.