9 ms·

How the World's Most Difficult Bouldering Problems Get Made (2015)

135 points by cribbles 8y ago

vertline3 8y ago
Bouldered a bit in college, feel like code challenge sites like Project Euler are like a programmer form of bouldering. you fail a few times, gain an insight, make some progress, finally get it, then feel a big rush of accomplishment.
- labbeth 8y ago
  42+ years old, climber since 2 years here, progammer since +30y. Interesting comparaison, but bouldering problems relies on physical-traits that are harder to move up than the psychological-traits needed in Project Euler. ( think of size, balance, synchronicity ... ). ... but OK some PE are now too hard for me. Training during college would change the game.
  - vertline3 8y ago
    Yeah I struggled with grip after a point, would use the hangboard all the time. My frame is thin. Also just a lot of understanding how to move is hard to get.
sixo 8y ago
In case anyone isn't already familiar with indoor bouldering, here's a great competition video: https://youtu.be/uHlV_nLLXLc?t=49 https://youtu.be/uHlV_nLLXLc?t=49 Cannot recommend bouldering enough. Problem-solving minds tend to love it.
- sharkweek 8y ago
  I’m more into mountain stuff when it comes to climbing, but I will be the first to say bouldering is such a beautiful balance of strength and finesse. It kind of has a “yoga” feel to it, in that it’s all about deliberate motion through the moves.
- justinator 8y ago
  I'd recommend anyone curious about bouldering get into simply top rope climbing first. Bouldering is HARD which isn't so much the real problem, but it can also be frustrating. Some problem solving strategies like throwing yourself into the problem (metaphorically)can result in nasty injuries and a short bouldering career. Get some easy climbing mileage!
  - nlawalker 8y ago
    Starting easy is definitely sage advice, but I like recommending bouldering for the simple fact that you can just go. You don't have to start by scheduling ahead and paying for a class, coming back the next day to get a belay card, and then finding a partner with an agreeable schedule (or scheduling and paying for a gym-staff belayer). Most gyms are catering heavily to beginners nowadays and offer tons of beginner problems. If you've never been bouldering before and curiosity strikes on a Saturday morning, you can literally drive to a gym, sign a waiver, rent shoes, and start climbing the walls, usually for about $25 or less depending on your location. Of course, this isn't without risk. If anyone reading this decides to do it, take at least a few minutes to learn the gym etiquette and start slow!
  - akvadrako 8y ago
    Bouldering is as easy as you want it to be. The easiest routes are doable by people with no experience or much strength.
    - justinator 8y ago
      It seems to me that the learning curve is much more of a precipice, no? Of all the gym bouldering problems, only a few are rated for absolute beginners - the rest are much harder. Even the V-grade of, "0" is compared roughly to a 5.10 roped climb. In at least my bouldering space, you'll simply run out of things to do, quickly, as a beginner. It may be also where I train, as the gym isn't one specifically geared towards beginners, the grades may not be as inflated as other places, and the route setters read like a who's-who of American sport climbers (Matty Hong, Jon Cardwell, etc).
- TomVDB 8y ago
  That was an awesome move at the end! I loved rock climbing, but overdid it by doing it 2 times per week in combination with squash and badminton. Too much for the tendons of my arms, and it never really went away. One of my favorite childhood memories was going to Fontainebleau, just south or Paris. They have fantastic outdoor bouldering there. 25 years later I went back there for my honeymoon and it was just a great as I remembered.
  - ericmcer 8y ago
    Part of the joy of bouldering for me has been putting tons of pressure on my tendons/joints/pulleys and then figuring out how to get them conditioned to endure the strain. I used to get such bad tennis elbow that I would have to lay on the floor after climbing, elbows just aching for 1-2 hours. Stretching, long warmups, yoga, foam rolling & other fascial releases, diet (collagen & fish oil especially) have gotten them to the point where they can take an insane amount of abuse and keep going, Now I am working on my fingers :). There is a kind of glamorization of these really intense training sessions in the workout community, but the real work and struggle is rehabilitating injuries, and having the patience for the best practices that allow you to train hard safely at the next level.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- GiuseppaAcciaio 8y ago
  Bouldering is the ultimate exercise form for me: it's physically taxing, and I don't even care because my brain is enjoying the challenge too much! I can't commit to running, cycling or swimming because 30s in, I start to think about all the stuff I could be doing instead; when I'm bouldering, there's nothing else in my mind except for the problem :)
  - ArrayList 8y ago
    That's a shame, because cycling is absolutely incredible. Running or swimming? Eh, screw those.
    - GiuseppaAcciaio 8y ago
      I'd definitely enjoy cycling more if I didn't live in central London, which makes it more of a "death wish experience with lungfuls of toxic shit" than I'd like :)
- parliament32 8y ago
  The best summary of bouldering (and sport routes, and trad to an extent) is that it's like solving physical puzzles with your body. If you're relatively fit and have a problem-solving mindset, I'd strongly recommend dropping in to your local climbing gym for an intro class.
evanriley 8y ago
I was lucky enough to have and Outdoor Education class & a great teacher in High School that got me into climbing, which turned into a love for Bouldering. Its one of the things I try to get all of my friends into who want to do something more active in their life or just something fun. Too me its the perfect balance of physical exertion and problem solving. The community is also (for the most part) great to be apart. If anyone has any questions about the sport I would love to answer them.
Konnstann 8y ago
As much as I like the article, the title is flat-out incorrect. The most difficult bouldering problems aren't found inside a gym, they are out in nature. World Cup problems average V10ish, whereas the top climbers project V16 outside.
- betenoire 8y ago
  It literally says those things. It says boulder problems go up to v16, and that they aim for v10 at the comp.
  - jimnotgym 8y ago
    To save other Europeans a Google. V10 = 7c+ font. V16 = 8c+ font. Both grades I don't even aspire to! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(bouldering)#Comparisons_of_bouldering_grades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(bouldering)#Comparisons...
    - avs733 8y ago
      To save those who don't climb... I've climbed most of my life... I boulder three times a week and run 30 miles worth of trails a week . I can do pullups from my finger tips on a 'hangboard' (it's a training tool). I climbed a V5 last week and was so happy I nearly cried. These people are freaks in the most awe inspiring and amazing way I can possibly imagine. Climbing competitions are worth watching just for the sheer amazement at what the human body can be trained to do. I use them at the beginning of classes because students usually just stop talking and watch in stunned silence.
      - air7 8y ago
        > These people are freaks in the most awe inspiring and amazing way I can possibly imagine. I went to youtube to find out what you mean. Didn't need to search for long. Here's one example. I don't know what grade this is but the climb is definitely freaky. https://youtu.be/4QrvLoxFAM4?t=180 https://youtu.be/4QrvLoxFAM4?t=180
mholt 8y ago
I recently got into climbing (+ bouldering). Although I get super bored at regular gyms, I never bore of climbing, I think, because it's like programming -- for the body. Problem solving applied to an element that is both sociable and physical.
- justinator 8y ago
  There's freedom in it: sometimes I wanna play chess; other times: just checkers.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- natmaka 8y ago
  I also got bored at regular gyms, and realized that combat-oriented martial arts may be the ultimate problem-solving challenges. You have to muster all your intellectual and physical capabilities "against" an intelligent opponent who acts/reacts "in realtime", but also is prepared to it (the boulders layout is carefully crafted beforehand, but it doesn't react!). Jiu-jitsu may be one of the most adequate because it seems not as dangerous as striking arts (albeit by becoming competitive one may gain serious back-related aches or even injuries).
  - hailk 8y ago
    Agreed with the combat-oriented sports being the ultimate problem-solving challenge. Used to box (still occasional do), have never obtained the same technical satisfaction anywhere else. There are so many different facets to it. Ring generalship, creating angles, stances that gain or lose out on defensive or offensive capabilities, psychological game by use of feints and disruptive rhythms. It's not called the sweet science for nothing. Should hold true for other combat sports as well.
jimnotgym 8y ago
I'm a fat-old-man in climbing terms. I still prefer the mental challenge of trad leading (although I haven't done much recently) to bouldering. The zen like state of staying calm while placing gear that your life depends on is quite something to me. Whereas bouldering is an art form of movement... and one I suck at...but it never appealed to me in the same way
- justinator 8y ago
  I share your sentiment. Though I find bouldering good practice for hard sequences in roped climbing. My philosophy has been " if you can't climb the crux, you can't climb the route!" I don't do many outdoor activities where this same concept holds up. Like if I'm mountain biking and can't clear a section cleanly, I can still ride the rest of the trail. That's not always so in climbing (even when aiding through)
- bacon_waffle 8y ago
  Same here. Plus, when I was more in to that scene, it seemed like a disproportionate number of folks got injuries from bouldering vs free climbing.
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    Yup. It is vastly more dangerous than trad or even sport climbing. No rope+fall=bad, even if only a few feet off the deck. Bouldering also leads to pushing a vertical boundry, exactly where does bouldering become free soloing? I also worry for the boulderer/gym rat who's physical abilities are not matched with the technical knowhow that comes from trad.
- starpilot 8y ago
  I struggle to get enthusiastic about outdoor bouldering. I've done it in Bishop, Squamish and just get demoralized after getting shutdown on V1 problems after 3+ attempts. Love trad though.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
justinator 8y ago
If one likes the "bouldering is problem solving like programming is problem solving" paradigm, you may enjoy training tools like the Moon Board, which is an array of holds spaced out uniformly with problems programmed in using LEDs (use only the holds where the LEDs are on). You can share the same problem around the world- anywhere there's another moonboard, and collaborate that way. https://www.moonboard.com https://www.moonboard.com
codetrotter 8y ago
Climbing is a lot of fun. It is talked about on HN occasionally but IMO not often enough. Hope to see more submissions about climbing on HN! Oh and if anyone ITT is in the proximity of Gjøvik, Norway (slim chance) and would like to climb, message me on Mastodon. @codetrotter@vis.social I am a bit out of shape but I belay safely and communicate well and that’s what matters the most when we climb single pitch, isn’t it ;) Though of course it is preferable to climb with someone on about the same level to minimize the amount of switching back and forth between routes.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
enraged_camel 8y ago
I'm the founder and organizer of the Bouldering in Austin meetup. We are a little over a year old and recently surpassed 500 members. If any Austinites want to try it out, either as beginners or experienced climbers, give me a holler. :) https://www.meetup.com/Bouldering-in-Austin/ https://www.meetup.com/Bouldering-in-Austin/
- scarecrowbob 8y ago
  I climb at Crux... if you see an awkward bald-ish dude with a horseshoe mustache in the rope canyon feel free to say howdy.
pierrec 8y ago
I think this article doesn't really explain what the setters are focusing on here, and it's actually quite interesting. When setting for a bouldering competition, the problems you create must satisfy very precise constraints: namely, create good separation between competitors, but still be entertaining for spectators. Separation is the hard part. In finals you have a handful of competitors doing a handful of problems, and the perfect separation you're going for is something like this: 1st place: 4 tops 2st place: 3 tops 3rd place: 2 tops ... Of course this rarely ever happens, but it's approximately what you're aiming for. It's hard. You have to know the exact level of the competitors that are participating, and fine-tune the difficulty of the problems so that they will be nicely separated, preferably without depending on height/reach or overly specific strengths. Even world-class setters sometimes fail at this, for example creating a world cup where almost every finalist gets 1 top, leaving only the number of attempts (or zones) to separate them. There's still technically separation, but it's catastrophically frustrating for spectators and competitors, and the results will be less likely to reflect each competitor's actual climbing skill. With all that, you also want the problems to have creative and interesting moves that get the crowd going wild (but that's really the fun part of setting). Source: I'm a routesetter, both regular gym climbs and competitions.
- hailk 8y ago
  > preferably without depending on height/reach or overly specific strengths. How do you attain this? From an amateur hobbyist eye it seems that bouldering as a sport favours lean + tall builds -> Reach + light-weight advantage. How do you set routes that disadvantage this type?
  - kankroc 8y ago
    As a lean and tall bouldering amateur, anything where my feet gets close to my hands will be extremely hard to keep. Sample size of 1.
    - chronial 8y ago
      Make that two :). To elaborate: different body sizes give you different balance points, different leverage and different angles of attack. That can make specific moves harder for taller people.

135 points by cribbles 8y ago

Bouldered a bit in college, feel like code challenge sites like Project Euler are like a programmer form of bouldering. you fail a few times, gain an insight, make some progress, finally get it, then feel a big rush of accomplishment.

labbeth 8y ago
42+ years old, climber since 2 years here, progammer since +30y. Interesting comparaison, but bouldering problems relies on physical-traits that are harder to move up than the psychological-traits needed in Project Euler. ( think of size, balance, synchronicity ... ). ... but OK some PE are now too hard for me. Training during college would change the game.
- vertline3 8y ago
  Yeah I struggled with grip after a point, would use the hangboard all the time. My frame is thin. Also just a lot of understanding how to move is hard to get.

sixo 8y ago

In case anyone isn't already familiar with indoor bouldering, here's a great competition video: https://youtu.be/uHlV_nLLXLc?t=49 https://youtu.be/uHlV_nLLXLc?t=49 Cannot recommend bouldering enough. Problem-solving minds tend to love it.

sharkweek 8y ago
I’m more into mountain stuff when it comes to climbing, but I will be the first to say bouldering is such a beautiful balance of strength and finesse. It kind of has a “yoga” feel to it, in that it’s all about deliberate motion through the moves.
justinator 8y ago
I'd recommend anyone curious about bouldering get into simply top rope climbing first. Bouldering is HARD which isn't so much the real problem, but it can also be frustrating. Some problem solving strategies like throwing yourself into the problem (metaphorically)can result in nasty injuries and a short bouldering career. Get some easy climbing mileage!
- nlawalker 8y ago
  Starting easy is definitely sage advice, but I like recommending bouldering for the simple fact that you can just go. You don't have to start by scheduling ahead and paying for a class, coming back the next day to get a belay card, and then finding a partner with an agreeable schedule (or scheduling and paying for a gym-staff belayer). Most gyms are catering heavily to beginners nowadays and offer tons of beginner problems. If you've never been bouldering before and curiosity strikes on a Saturday morning, you can literally drive to a gym, sign a waiver, rent shoes, and start climbing the walls, usually for about $25 or less depending on your location. Of course, this isn't without risk. If anyone reading this decides to do it, take at least a few minutes to learn the gym etiquette and start slow!
- akvadrako 8y ago
  Bouldering is as easy as you want it to be. The easiest routes are doable by people with no experience or much strength.
  - justinator 8y ago
    It seems to me that the learning curve is much more of a precipice, no? Of all the gym bouldering problems, only a few are rated for absolute beginners - the rest are much harder. Even the V-grade of, "0" is compared roughly to a 5.10 roped climb. In at least my bouldering space, you'll simply run out of things to do, quickly, as a beginner. It may be also where I train, as the gym isn't one specifically geared towards beginners, the grades may not be as inflated as other places, and the route setters read like a who's-who of American sport climbers (Matty Hong, Jon Cardwell, etc).
TomVDB 8y ago
That was an awesome move at the end! I loved rock climbing, but overdid it by doing it 2 times per week in combination with squash and badminton. Too much for the tendons of my arms, and it never really went away. One of my favorite childhood memories was going to Fontainebleau, just south or Paris. They have fantastic outdoor bouldering there. 25 years later I went back there for my honeymoon and it was just a great as I remembered.
- ericmcer 8y ago
  Part of the joy of bouldering for me has been putting tons of pressure on my tendons/joints/pulleys and then figuring out how to get them conditioned to endure the strain. I used to get such bad tennis elbow that I would have to lay on the floor after climbing, elbows just aching for 1-2 hours. Stretching, long warmups, yoga, foam rolling & other fascial releases, diet (collagen & fish oil especially) have gotten them to the point where they can take an insane amount of abuse and keep going, Now I am working on my fingers :). There is a kind of glamorization of these really intense training sessions in the workout community, but the real work and struggle is rehabilitating injuries, and having the patience for the best practices that allow you to train hard safely at the next level.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
GiuseppaAcciaio 8y ago
Bouldering is the ultimate exercise form for me: it's physically taxing, and I don't even care because my brain is enjoying the challenge too much! I can't commit to running, cycling or swimming because 30s in, I start to think about all the stuff I could be doing instead; when I'm bouldering, there's nothing else in my mind except for the problem :)
- ArrayList 8y ago
  That's a shame, because cycling is absolutely incredible. Running or swimming? Eh, screw those.
  - GiuseppaAcciaio 8y ago
    I'd definitely enjoy cycling more if I didn't live in central London, which makes it more of a "death wish experience with lungfuls of toxic shit" than I'd like :)
parliament32 8y ago
The best summary of bouldering (and sport routes, and trad to an extent) is that it's like solving physical puzzles with your body. If you're relatively fit and have a problem-solving mindset, I'd strongly recommend dropping in to your local climbing gym for an intro class.

evanriley 8y ago

I was lucky enough to have and Outdoor Education class & a great teacher in High School that got me into climbing, which turned into a love for Bouldering. Its one of the things I try to get all of my friends into who want to do something more active in their life or just something fun. Too me its the perfect balance of physical exertion and problem solving. The community is also (for the most part) great to be apart. If anyone has any questions about the sport I would love to answer them.

Konnstann 8y ago

As much as I like the article, the title is flat-out incorrect. The most difficult bouldering problems aren't found inside a gym, they are out in nature. World Cup problems average V10ish, whereas the top climbers project V16 outside.

betenoire 8y ago
It literally says those things. It says boulder problems go up to v16, and that they aim for v10 at the comp.
- jimnotgym 8y ago
  To save other Europeans a Google. V10 = 7c+ font. V16 = 8c+ font. Both grades I don't even aspire to! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(bouldering)#Comparisons_of_bouldering_grades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(bouldering)#Comparisons...
  - avs733 8y ago
    To save those who don't climb... I've climbed most of my life... I boulder three times a week and run 30 miles worth of trails a week . I can do pullups from my finger tips on a 'hangboard' (it's a training tool). I climbed a V5 last week and was so happy I nearly cried. These people are freaks in the most awe inspiring and amazing way I can possibly imagine. Climbing competitions are worth watching just for the sheer amazement at what the human body can be trained to do. I use them at the beginning of classes because students usually just stop talking and watch in stunned silence.
    - air7 8y ago
      > These people are freaks in the most awe inspiring and amazing way I can possibly imagine. I went to youtube to find out what you mean. Didn't need to search for long. Here's one example. I don't know what grade this is but the climb is definitely freaky. https://youtu.be/4QrvLoxFAM4?t=180 https://youtu.be/4QrvLoxFAM4?t=180

mholt 8y ago

I recently got into climbing (+ bouldering). Although I get super bored at regular gyms, I never bore of climbing, I think, because it's like programming -- for the body. Problem solving applied to an element that is both sociable and physical.

justinator 8y ago
There's freedom in it: sometimes I wanna play chess; other times: just checkers.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
natmaka 8y ago
I also got bored at regular gyms, and realized that combat-oriented martial arts may be the ultimate problem-solving challenges. You have to muster all your intellectual and physical capabilities "against" an intelligent opponent who acts/reacts "in realtime", but also is prepared to it (the boulders layout is carefully crafted beforehand, but it doesn't react!). Jiu-jitsu may be one of the most adequate because it seems not as dangerous as striking arts (albeit by becoming competitive one may gain serious back-related aches or even injuries).
- hailk 8y ago
  Agreed with the combat-oriented sports being the ultimate problem-solving challenge. Used to box (still occasional do), have never obtained the same technical satisfaction anywhere else. There are so many different facets to it. Ring generalship, creating angles, stances that gain or lose out on defensive or offensive capabilities, psychological game by use of feints and disruptive rhythms. It's not called the sweet science for nothing. Should hold true for other combat sports as well.

jimnotgym 8y ago

I'm a fat-old-man in climbing terms. I still prefer the mental challenge of trad leading (although I haven't done much recently) to bouldering. The zen like state of staying calm while placing gear that your life depends on is quite something to me. Whereas bouldering is an art form of movement... and one I suck at...but it never appealed to me in the same way

justinator 8y ago
I share your sentiment. Though I find bouldering good practice for hard sequences in roped climbing. My philosophy has been " if you can't climb the crux, you can't climb the route!" I don't do many outdoor activities where this same concept holds up. Like if I'm mountain biking and can't clear a section cleanly, I can still ride the rest of the trail. That's not always so in climbing (even when aiding through)
bacon_waffle 8y ago
Same here. Plus, when I was more in to that scene, it seemed like a disproportionate number of folks got injuries from bouldering vs free climbing.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  Yup. It is vastly more dangerous than trad or even sport climbing. No rope+fall=bad, even if only a few feet off the deck. Bouldering also leads to pushing a vertical boundry, exactly where does bouldering become free soloing? I also worry for the boulderer/gym rat who's physical abilities are not matched with the technical knowhow that comes from trad.
starpilot 8y ago
I struggle to get enthusiastic about outdoor bouldering. I've done it in Bishop, Squamish and just get demoralized after getting shutdown on V1 problems after 3+ attempts. Love trad though.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

justinator 8y ago

If one likes the "bouldering is problem solving like programming is problem solving" paradigm, you may enjoy training tools like the Moon Board, which is an array of holds spaced out uniformly with problems programmed in using LEDs (use only the holds where the LEDs are on). You can share the same problem around the world- anywhere there's another moonboard, and collaborate that way. https://www.moonboard.com https://www.moonboard.com

codetrotter 8y ago

Climbing is a lot of fun. It is talked about on HN occasionally but IMO not often enough. Hope to see more submissions about climbing on HN! Oh and if anyone ITT is in the proximity of Gjøvik, Norway (slim chance) and would like to climb, message me on Mastodon. @codetrotter@vis.social I am a bit out of shape but I belay safely and communicate well and that’s what matters the most when we climb single pitch, isn’t it ;) Though of course it is preferable to climb with someone on about the same level to minimize the amount of switching back and forth between routes.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

enraged_camel 8y ago

I'm the founder and organizer of the Bouldering in Austin meetup. We are a little over a year old and recently surpassed 500 members. If any Austinites want to try it out, either as beginners or experienced climbers, give me a holler. :) https://www.meetup.com/Bouldering-in-Austin/ https://www.meetup.com/Bouldering-in-Austin/

scarecrowbob 8y ago
I climb at Crux... if you see an awkward bald-ish dude with a horseshoe mustache in the rope canyon feel free to say howdy.

pierrec 8y ago

I think this article doesn't really explain what the setters are focusing on here, and it's actually quite interesting. When setting for a bouldering competition, the problems you create must satisfy very precise constraints: namely, create good separation between competitors, but still be entertaining for spectators. Separation is the hard part. In finals you have a handful of competitors doing a handful of problems, and the perfect separation you're going for is something like this: 1st place: 4 tops 2st place: 3 tops 3rd place: 2 tops ... Of course this rarely ever happens, but it's approximately what you're aiming for. It's hard. You have to know the exact level of the competitors that are participating, and fine-tune the difficulty of the problems so that they will be nicely separated, preferably without depending on height/reach or overly specific strengths. Even world-class setters sometimes fail at this, for example creating a world cup where almost every finalist gets 1 top, leaving only the number of attempts (or zones) to separate them. There's still technically separation, but it's catastrophically frustrating for spectators and competitors, and the results will be less likely to reflect each competitor's actual climbing skill. With all that, you also want the problems to have creative and interesting moves that get the crowd going wild (but that's really the fun part of setting). Source: I'm a routesetter, both regular gym climbs and competitions.

hailk 8y ago
> preferably without depending on height/reach or overly specific strengths. How do you attain this? From an amateur hobbyist eye it seems that bouldering as a sport favours lean + tall builds -> Reach + light-weight advantage. How do you set routes that disadvantage this type?
- kankroc 8y ago
  As a lean and tall bouldering amateur, anything where my feet gets close to my hands will be extremely hard to keep. Sample size of 1.
  - chronial 8y ago
    Make that two :). To elaborate: different body sizes give you different balance points, different leverage and different angles of attack. That can make specific moves harder for taller people.