6 ms·

Saying "everyone should speak" actually means "everyone should speak according to their purchasing power in the market" right now - so I think your premise, whi

by hobs 8y ago

Saying "everyone should speak" actually means "everyone should speak according to their purchasing power in the market" right now - so I think your premise, while well meaning, is not realistic. Having liars with big pockets broadcast lies (propaganda) works very effectively, no "black market suppression of the truth" is needed to weaponize bad ideas.

harshreality 8y ago
Propaganda from deep-pocketed individuals and organizations is a problem, but the current cure is worse than the disease, particularly when the censorship itself is biased. It takes more to be labelled fringe and justify censorship for left-leaning speech, than it takes for right-leaning speech. The root problem with modern discourse and social media is subtle, unforced siloing of communication within subgroups, so that there's not enough subgroup-bridging discussion. Overton windows shrink until subgroup-bridging discussion is mostly impossible. That all happens without any active censorship.
- smacktoward 8y ago
  > the current cure is worse than the disease This comment is the text version of that cartoon where the dog sits in the room where everything is on fire thinking "this is fine."
  - basurihn 8y ago
    Assuming that the "cure" refers to some form of blasphemy law, then it is actually apropos, although devoid of explanation, sure. I'm assuming you are liberal. Go read Popehat's views on blasphemy laws. He's liberal.
- pjc50 8y ago
  > It takes more to be labelled fringe and justify censorship for left-leaning speech, than it takes for right-leaning speech. That's because there's more harm-promoting speech, and more incoherent lies, from the right? Saying there should be equal treatment of left and right speech regardless of the content is nonsense.
  - basurihn 8y ago
    I come from a very right-leaning area. I was quite surprised to find that everyone I knew supported the daily killing and torture of Jews... because that is what Nazis do, right? I was also quite surprised to hear that my community wants to take away rights from black people, which I heard in a radio ad not so long ago. The left has its equal share of hobgoblins.
    - pjc50 8y ago
      > I was also quite surprised to hear that my community wants to take away rights from black people, which I heard in a radio ad not so long ago Have you checked this? What's their opinion on, for example, Black Lives matter?
      - basurihn 8y ago
        Most of them don't have the education to know the definition of a false equivalence. That you can seriously entertain Republicans would remove black freedoms if not for Black Lives Matter just turned this thread into one where you can rant away without my participation. I'm learning to walk away from hate.
belorn 8y ago
Control and monitoring turns easily into oppression and stagnation, and there is many blooded pages in history to describe that outcome. We might say that this time it will be different, that we are just removing the bad actors and obvious bad behavior, and to put our trust in those that sit at the control. To that I quote: "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he deems himself your master." On the other end we have the open town square where the loudest speakers and richest will overpower all other voices until none can hear anything and chaos pours forth. From both we see people flee into isolated subgroups with perfect echo chamber where the oppressed be free from the loud and censors, with the eventual result of polarization where those outside turns in their eyes into less and less human. From there hate and violence ensures and we go back and ask our self, did we want the censors or loudest to rule.
quotemstr 8y ago
Our attention is a limited resource. How do you propose to arbitrate access to this limited resource except through the price mechanism? Some kind of attention lottery?

by hobs 8y ago

harshreality 8y ago

Propaganda from deep-pocketed individuals and organizations is a problem, but the current cure is worse than the disease, particularly when the censorship itself is biased. It takes more to be labelled fringe and justify censorship for left-leaning speech, than it takes for right-leaning speech. The root problem with modern discourse and social media is subtle, unforced siloing of communication within subgroups, so that there's not enough subgroup-bridging discussion. Overton windows shrink until subgroup-bridging discussion is mostly impossible. That all happens without any active censorship.

smacktoward 8y ago
> the current cure is worse than the disease This comment is the text version of that cartoon where the dog sits in the room where everything is on fire thinking "this is fine."
- basurihn 8y ago
  Assuming that the "cure" refers to some form of blasphemy law, then it is actually apropos, although devoid of explanation, sure. I'm assuming you are liberal. Go read Popehat's views on blasphemy laws. He's liberal.
pjc50 8y ago
> It takes more to be labelled fringe and justify censorship for left-leaning speech, than it takes for right-leaning speech. That's because there's more harm-promoting speech, and more incoherent lies, from the right? Saying there should be equal treatment of left and right speech regardless of the content is nonsense.
- basurihn 8y ago
  I come from a very right-leaning area. I was quite surprised to find that everyone I knew supported the daily killing and torture of Jews... because that is what Nazis do, right? I was also quite surprised to hear that my community wants to take away rights from black people, which I heard in a radio ad not so long ago. The left has its equal share of hobgoblins.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    > I was also quite surprised to hear that my community wants to take away rights from black people, which I heard in a radio ad not so long ago Have you checked this? What's their opinion on, for example, Black Lives matter?
    - basurihn 8y ago
      Most of them don't have the education to know the definition of a false equivalence. That you can seriously entertain Republicans would remove black freedoms if not for Black Lives Matter just turned this thread into one where you can rant away without my participation. I'm learning to walk away from hate.

belorn 8y ago

Control and monitoring turns easily into oppression and stagnation, and there is many blooded pages in history to describe that outcome. We might say that this time it will be different, that we are just removing the bad actors and obvious bad behavior, and to put our trust in those that sit at the control. To that I quote: "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he deems himself your master." On the other end we have the open town square where the loudest speakers and richest will overpower all other voices until none can hear anything and chaos pours forth. From both we see people flee into isolated subgroups with perfect echo chamber where the oppressed be free from the loud and censors, with the eventual result of polarization where those outside turns in their eyes into less and less human. From there hate and violence ensures and we go back and ask our self, did we want the censors or loudest to rule.

quotemstr 8y ago

Our attention is a limited resource. How do you propose to arbitrate access to this limited resource except through the price mechanism? Some kind of attention lottery?