9 ms·

I wasn’t alive then but always has the impression that “home computers” like those described were much more popular in Europe and Japan while PCs became the dom

ams6110 8y ago
Well, people wanted the same computers at home that they used at work, at least many did. For a while, when businesses were using computers like the TRS-80 line, people would buy them for home also. But when the business world standardized on the intel-based PC, that's what drove a lot of people to buy those for their homes also. So they could do work at home, and use software they were familiar with.
- ghaff 8y ago
  It also just seemed pretty obvious (perhaps modulo even pre-Mac Apple) that the "PC" was just where the puck was headed in terms of software, etc. I was shopping for my first computer ~1982/3 and I started out looking at a whole bunch of different options (mostly various Z80 systems) but by the time I bought one (in probably 1983), it was pretty obvious to then me that an IBM PC clone was the way to go. As you suggest, at least part of the influence was that, although I had used some Apples at work, we had switched to using an IBM PC which probably colored my thinking. Although I used them some in grad school later, I never got into Macs until relatively recently--and that was for basically work related reasons as well. (We basically don't use Windows and I didn't want to use solely Linux for presentations, etc.)
  - kgwgk 8y ago
    > IBM PC clone was the way to go. It was also many times as expensive, I think.
    - ghaff 8y ago
      As I recall, it varied. There were certainly relatively cheap Z80 and other machines like the Commodore 64. But I don't remember systems like the Apple III, Epson's machines, etc. being vastly different in price given the same floppy-only configuration.
      - UncleSlacky 8y ago
        The first "affordable" PC clones (in Europe at least) didn't appear until 1986, with the Amstrad PC1512 (apparently also marketed in the US as the PC6400): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC1512 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC1512
        dragonwriter 8y ago
        The first (and most successful for many years) in the US was the Tandy 1000, which appeared in 1984.
        ghaff 8y ago
        Much earlier in the US. Most notably Compaq (founded in 1982). But many others. The one I bought in 1983 or so was from a company called Corona. I think Eagle was another.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      Retail price? Sure, but a number of large US conglomerates (the early PC era was also the height, or maybe just the tail end, of the period of big unfocussed US conglomerates) built clones in house and offered steep employee discounts across the whole conglomerate, not just the division that made and sold PCs.
ido 8y ago
It wasn't until the late 80s the the PC ("IBM compatibles") became more popular than the commdore 64 even in the US.
Marazan 8y ago
In Europe you had Clive Sinclair who produced the zx80, zx81 and, critically, the ZX Spectrum. Clive wasn't focused on building the best computer, he was focused on building the cheapest. He made home computers mass market. The C64 was more than twice as expensive as the Spectrum. _Anyone_ could own a Spectrum.
- classichasclass 8y ago
  Almost exactly the same thing was said in the US between the Apple II family and the Commodore. _Anyone_ could own a Commodore. My folks couldn't afford a IIe, but they could get a 64 and all the trimmings.
  - Marazan 8y ago
    True, but for the C64 "anyone" meant anyone middle-class. The Spectrum "anyone" really meant almost anyone.
    - ido 8y ago
      You may underestimate how much: 1. prices for computers were lower in the US than in the UK 2. wealthier Americans were than europeans in the 70s and early 80s (the gap closed the further from WW2 we got) That "double" priced c64 in the UK probably set an American family back as much as a spectrum did in the UK in terms of their respective disposable income.
      - Marazan 8y ago
        The C64 launched at 600 dollars in the USA, the Timex licensed version of the Spectrum was 200 dollars.
        rwallace 8y ago
        But the Timex Sinclair 2068 was released just over a year later, so while there was still a price discrepancy, it was much smaller than 3x.
reaperducer 8y ago
I wasn’t alive then but always has the impression that “home computers” like those described were much more popular in Europe and Japan while PCs became the dominant platform in the US. Is this why? Your impression is wrong. 8 bit home computers were massive in the U.S. the main differences between the U.S. and Europe were: . Europe was big into Acorn and Sinclair. In the U.S., Sinclair was an also-ran under the Timex brand, and was widely seen as a toy; Acorn was unknown. . Tape drives were more common in Europe, while U.S. consumers almost always had a disk drive or both. IBM becoming big in the home computer space didn’t happen until the 8-bit Commodore and early Apple machines were already long in the tooth. When it came time for people who owned Commodore 64’s and TI99/4A’s to upgrade, the choices were often Amiga, Mac, or IBM. IBM was an easy decision for many because they were familiar with the machines from work, and because the notion of doing more office-like things at home was becoming popular. It was about this time that the home “computer room” evolved into the “home office.”
- flohofwoe 8y ago
  I'd say the UK was into Acorn and Sinclair, not (Western-)Europe as a whole. The situation was very different per country (e.g. the Acorn Atom was quite popular in the Netherlands, but AFAIK nowhere else on the continent). In (Western-)Germany it was mainly Commodore (C64 and Amiga), and apparently(?) Amstrad CPC were quite popular in France and Spain. Eastern Europe was either ZX Spectrum clones, or "domestic designs", mostly based on Z80 CPU clones, but also some 6502 based machines (e.g. an Apple II clone) in Bulgaria.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >Amstrad CPC were quite popular in France and Spain And in Britain and other european countries as well...
  - mprev 8y ago
    Afaicr, the Amstrads were distributed under the Schneider brand in some non-UK countries.
- vidarh 8y ago
mb_72 8y ago
They were huge in Australia also - I recall visiting a 'computer show' in 1981 in what was then a population of 32k people city, and next year I convinced my Dad we ... ahem ... I needed a TRS-80 Color Computer. Putting aside the huge interest in Commodore computers, at that stage Tandy Electronics (the Australia version of Radio Shack) had a strong presence in the market. You could go along to 'computer courses' at my local Tandy store, and they had lots of stock of the various TRS-80 business and home models; the staff working there had good knowledge of the machines, and would even do RAM upgrades etc. There was even local development of various clones (eg the Dick Smith System 80, which was a TRS-80 Model 1 clone). This country town I lived in had newsagents that imported all the 'known' magazines (Byte) as well as specialist Color Computer publications. It become a monthly ritual for my Dad to drive 10-year old me around to collect all my 'necessary' magazines. Looking back, I was quite lucky in terms of timing as getting my hands on a PC I could program in BASIC and assembly, and also having access to worldwide print resources, meant I already had a wider outlook than the employment opportunities that were available locally (which really came down to working in the local steel production facility). It was quite a good time to be alive, and discovering computers and computing, when I think about it now.

ams6110 8y ago

Well, people wanted the same computers at home that they used at work, at least many did. For a while, when businesses were using computers like the TRS-80 line, people would buy them for home also. But when the business world standardized on the intel-based PC, that's what drove a lot of people to buy those for their homes also. So they could do work at home, and use software they were familiar with.

ghaff 8y ago
It also just seemed pretty obvious (perhaps modulo even pre-Mac Apple) that the "PC" was just where the puck was headed in terms of software, etc. I was shopping for my first computer ~1982/3 and I started out looking at a whole bunch of different options (mostly various Z80 systems) but by the time I bought one (in probably 1983), it was pretty obvious to then me that an IBM PC clone was the way to go. As you suggest, at least part of the influence was that, although I had used some Apples at work, we had switched to using an IBM PC which probably colored my thinking. Although I used them some in grad school later, I never got into Macs until relatively recently--and that was for basically work related reasons as well. (We basically don't use Windows and I didn't want to use solely Linux for presentations, etc.)
- kgwgk 8y ago
  > IBM PC clone was the way to go. It was also many times as expensive, I think.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    As I recall, it varied. There were certainly relatively cheap Z80 and other machines like the Commodore 64. But I don't remember systems like the Apple III, Epson's machines, etc. being vastly different in price given the same floppy-only configuration.
    - UncleSlacky 8y ago
      The first "affordable" PC clones (in Europe at least) didn't appear until 1986, with the Amstrad PC1512 (apparently also marketed in the US as the PC6400): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC1512 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC1512
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        The first (and most successful for many years) in the US was the Tandy 1000, which appeared in 1984.
      - ghaff 8y ago
        Much earlier in the US. Most notably Compaq (founded in 1982). But many others. The one I bought in 1983 or so was from a company called Corona. I think Eagle was another.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    Retail price? Sure, but a number of large US conglomerates (the early PC era was also the height, or maybe just the tail end, of the period of big unfocussed US conglomerates) built clones in house and offered steep employee discounts across the whole conglomerate, not just the division that made and sold PCs.

ido 8y ago

It wasn't until the late 80s the the PC ("IBM compatibles") became more popular than the commdore 64 even in the US.

Marazan 8y ago

In Europe you had Clive Sinclair who produced the zx80, zx81 and, critically, the ZX Spectrum. Clive wasn't focused on building the best computer, he was focused on building the cheapest. He made home computers mass market. The C64 was more than twice as expensive as the Spectrum. _Anyone_ could own a Spectrum.

classichasclass 8y ago
Almost exactly the same thing was said in the US between the Apple II family and the Commodore. _Anyone_ could own a Commodore. My folks couldn't afford a IIe, but they could get a 64 and all the trimmings.
- Marazan 8y ago
  True, but for the C64 "anyone" meant anyone middle-class. The Spectrum "anyone" really meant almost anyone.
  - ido 8y ago
    You may underestimate how much: 1. prices for computers were lower in the US than in the UK 2. wealthier Americans were than europeans in the 70s and early 80s (the gap closed the further from WW2 we got) That "double" priced c64 in the UK probably set an American family back as much as a spectrum did in the UK in terms of their respective disposable income.
    - Marazan 8y ago
      The C64 launched at 600 dollars in the USA, the Timex licensed version of the Spectrum was 200 dollars.
      - rwallace 8y ago
        But the Timex Sinclair 2068 was released just over a year later, so while there was still a price discrepancy, it was much smaller than 3x.

reaperducer 8y ago

I wasn’t alive then but always has the impression that “home computers” like those described were much more popular in Europe and Japan while PCs became the dominant platform in the US. Is this why? Your impression is wrong. 8 bit home computers were massive in the U.S. the main differences between the U.S. and Europe were: . Europe was big into Acorn and Sinclair. In the U.S., Sinclair was an also-ran under the Timex brand, and was widely seen as a toy; Acorn was unknown. . Tape drives were more common in Europe, while U.S. consumers almost always had a disk drive or both. IBM becoming big in the home computer space didn’t happen until the 8-bit Commodore and early Apple machines were already long in the tooth. When it came time for people who owned Commodore 64’s and TI99/4A’s to upgrade, the choices were often Amiga, Mac, or IBM. IBM was an easy decision for many because they were familiar with the machines from work, and because the notion of doing more office-like things at home was becoming popular. It was about this time that the home “computer room” evolved into the “home office.”

flohofwoe 8y ago
I'd say the UK was into Acorn and Sinclair, not (Western-)Europe as a whole. The situation was very different per country (e.g. the Acorn Atom was quite popular in the Netherlands, but AFAIK nowhere else on the continent). In (Western-)Germany it was mainly Commodore (C64 and Amiga), and apparently(?) Amstrad CPC were quite popular in France and Spain. Eastern Europe was either ZX Spectrum clones, or "domestic designs", mostly based on Z80 CPU clones, but also some 6502 based machines (e.g. an Apple II clone) in Bulgaria.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >Amstrad CPC were quite popular in France and Spain And in Britain and other european countries as well...
- mprev 8y ago
  Afaicr, the Amstrads were distributed under the Schneider brand in some non-UK countries.
vidarh 8y ago

mb_72 8y ago

They were huge in Australia also - I recall visiting a 'computer show' in 1981 in what was then a population of 32k people city, and next year I convinced my Dad we ... ahem ... I needed a TRS-80 Color Computer. Putting aside the huge interest in Commodore computers, at that stage Tandy Electronics (the Australia version of Radio Shack) had a strong presence in the market. You could go along to 'computer courses' at my local Tandy store, and they had lots of stock of the various TRS-80 business and home models; the staff working there had good knowledge of the machines, and would even do RAM upgrades etc. There was even local development of various clones (eg the Dick Smith System 80, which was a TRS-80 Model 1 clone). This country town I lived in had newsagents that imported all the 'known' magazines (Byte) as well as specialist Color Computer publications. It become a monthly ritual for my Dad to drive 10-year old me around to collect all my 'necessary' magazines. Looking back, I was quite lucky in terms of timing as getting my hands on a PC I could program in BASIC and assembly, and also having access to worldwide print resources, meant I already had a wider outlook than the employment opportunities that were available locally (which really came down to working in the local steel production facility). It was quite a good time to be alive, and discovering computers and computing, when I think about it now.