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I tend not to trust ProtonMail that much after seeing this thread: https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn_and_tesonet/ https://old.reddit.

I tend not to trust ProtonMail that much after seeing this thread: https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn_and_tesonet/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonVPN/comments/8ww4h2/protonvpn... This is a reddit thread that criticizes ProtonVPN (same company as ProtonMain). The mod in charge of the sub offers a rebuttal to a criticism against them. Afterwards, the mod in charge of that sub locks it thereby preventing the accuser the ability to reply to that claim. Now it is possible that nothing wrong happened, but every time a business tries to censor a criticism against them, I tend not to give the business the benefit of the doubt.

jammygit 8y ago
Was it the CEO who locked the thread, some developer, or some PR person? There's a difference though between an emotional reaction by an employee and a company's policy. edit - I read the thread, it appears to be one of the original researchers from the project and a deliberate choice. I thought PIA was fairly reputable - does anybody know any actual facts around the incident?
- sublupo 8y ago
  Based on this: https://old.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9j35ry/i_am_dr_andy_yen_a_particle_physicist_who_left/ https://old.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9j35ry/i_am_dr_andy_y... It appears to be Andy Yen, the founder of ProtonMail.
- bscphil 8y ago
  When you say "PIA", are you referring to PrivateInternetAccess, or did you mean ProtonVPN?
  - jammygit 8y ago
    private internet access
- protonmail 8y ago
  It was indeed a deliberate choice, and we have explained the reasons why here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18479922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18479922
- rasengan 8y ago
  Hi Jammy, My name is Andrew from PIA. I don’t know about our reputation, and quite frankly, I don’t think it’s a good idea to simply blindly trust any VPN. You need to look at track record more so than anything else. To that extent, PIA is the only VPN that has been verified as not logging by courts on multiple occassions. That being said, we have been subject to a slanderous defamatory campaign by ProtonVPN for some time. I chose to ignore it but now his claims are going too far. This all started when I shared a few links proving that ProtonVPN was controlled by NordVPN/TESONET’s CEO and that the ProtonVPN android app was signed by Tesonet. I believe I did the right thing by sharing the facts about ProtonVPN given it is a purported privacy company - I thought people would want to know their android app was signed by Tesonet which says it is a data mining and machine learning firm on their own website. If I was born again and had the same decision in front of me, I would make the same decision in every lifetime. If you think that me standing by my beliefs and values makes PIA lose reputation - I hope PIA losses ALL OF ITS rep.
Caspy7 8y ago
> We have unfortunately had to lock the thread because there are some troll accounts continuing to push the misinformation being put out by Private Internet Access (a rival US-based VPN provider). You don't trust the company because of that single post on reddit?
- dijit 8y ago
  It’s possible that the moderators we’re deleting trollish comments. This one didn’t seem like trolling at all, it was well written and it was replied to, which makes it a strong candidate to keep in liu of others.
  - karmenblack 8y ago
    Do you think "trolling" cannot be well written? That's a bold statement without backing.
- zaarn 8y ago
  There were a lot of posts on both the subreddit of ProtonMail and as comments in the threads on there. Plus threads on various privacy subreddits. It was a pretty wide dragnet campaign tbh.
  - protonmail 8y ago
    Precisely. This was not the case of a couple accounts, it was hundreds of accounts, on all social media platforms, where a blanket locking of the thread became necessary. On Twitter alone, 500+ accounts: https://twitter.com/conspirator0/status/1036353291662360577 https://twitter.com/conspirator0/status/1036353291662360577
- rasengan 8y ago
  There was no misinformation put out by PIA. However, I, the co founder of PIA, did in fact link to facts showing that ProtonVPN was a Lithuanian company with the director being the same director as the director of Tesonet and NordVPN. I also did point out that the ProtonVPN android app was signed by Tesonet. This was all done on a hacker news thread. Not reddit - and one time. I simply wanted people to be aware of this, so I said it once, since ProtonVPN is supposed to be a privacy company. For doing this, I have been slandered and defamed and called names by Proton since.
pmoriarty 8y ago
I wouldn't trust any service that claims to respect their users privacy until there are multiple independent, highly respected organizations doing continuous vetting and verification of their claims. That said, I'd still rather use those services than the likes of Facebook, Google, and Microsoft -- who flaunt their contempt for the privacy of their users, or whose business depends on spying on their users and the people their users associate with, and who've demonstrated time and time again that they can't be trusted.
protonmail 8y ago
Proton team here. We are very much against censorship, in fact that's one of our core principles. However, as mentioned on Reddit, we needed to lock the thread because too many bot and fake accounts were posting. Many people fail to appreciate the full extent of the defamation campaign that was waged against ProtonVPN by PIA and others. This was not the case of a couple fake accounts that could be handled with manual moderation. We're talking literally hundreds of accounts trying to spread false information, to the point where it became a case study on fake news: https://twitter.com/conspirator0/status/1036353291662360577 https://twitter.com/conspirator0/status/1036353291662360577 The fact remains that to this day, ProtonVPN remains the only VPN service that has been thoroughly and continuously vetted by an independent third party, Mozilla no less: https://protonvpn.com/blog/mozilla-partnership/ https://protonvpn.com/blog/mozilla-partnership/
- rasengan 8y ago
  You really need to stop making false claims of some “defamation campaign.” Your business was registered in Lithuania and was owned by the owner of Tesonet/Nord. You signed your Android app with “Tesonet” as the name. I pointed these facts out and linked to them. Ever since, I have seen nothing but slanderous and defamatory attacks from you, as an individual and from Proton. Why do you attack a truthful messenger? Please stop this activity immediately. I’m asking you as a netizen. I did nothing wrong for pointing out these extremely scary peculiarities with ProtonVPN. And now you attack me non stop for sharing facts with the internet one time on hacker news with links to sources - which everyone on HN agreed with and even found more peculiarities. I guess you believe in censorship.
  - protonmail 8y ago
    Where this crosses into defamation is using the fact that Proton has a small office in Vilnius (representing <10% of total headcount) to imply, without proof, that Proton is part of some Lithuanian data mining conspiracy. This defamation becomes willful when an attempt is made to spread this to the press and on social media, even after the story has been debunked. The data-mining narrative is false, has been verified as false by third parties, and that's where we would like to leave things. Unfortunately as this false narrative still comes up from time to time, we still need to comment on this from time to time. What we can do from now on, since it bothers you, is to leave PIA out of it when responding. However, that won't change the fact that many people are aware the allegations were first made by PIA. This last point is beyond our reasonable control.

jammygit 8y ago

Was it the CEO who locked the thread, some developer, or some PR person? There's a difference though between an emotional reaction by an employee and a company's policy. edit - I read the thread, it appears to be one of the original researchers from the project and a deliberate choice. I thought PIA was fairly reputable - does anybody know any actual facts around the incident?

sublupo 8y ago
Based on this: https://old.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9j35ry/i_am_dr_andy_yen_a_particle_physicist_who_left/ https://old.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9j35ry/i_am_dr_andy_y... It appears to be Andy Yen, the founder of ProtonMail.
bscphil 8y ago
When you say "PIA", are you referring to PrivateInternetAccess, or did you mean ProtonVPN?
- jammygit 8y ago
  private internet access
protonmail 8y ago
It was indeed a deliberate choice, and we have explained the reasons why here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18479922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18479922
rasengan 8y ago
Hi Jammy, My name is Andrew from PIA. I don’t know about our reputation, and quite frankly, I don’t think it’s a good idea to simply blindly trust any VPN. You need to look at track record more so than anything else. To that extent, PIA is the only VPN that has been verified as not logging by courts on multiple occassions. That being said, we have been subject to a slanderous defamatory campaign by ProtonVPN for some time. I chose to ignore it but now his claims are going too far. This all started when I shared a few links proving that ProtonVPN was controlled by NordVPN/TESONET’s CEO and that the ProtonVPN android app was signed by Tesonet. I believe I did the right thing by sharing the facts about ProtonVPN given it is a purported privacy company - I thought people would want to know their android app was signed by Tesonet which says it is a data mining and machine learning firm on their own website. If I was born again and had the same decision in front of me, I would make the same decision in every lifetime. If you think that me standing by my beliefs and values makes PIA lose reputation - I hope PIA losses ALL OF ITS rep.

Caspy7 8y ago

> We have unfortunately had to lock the thread because there are some troll accounts continuing to push the misinformation being put out by Private Internet Access (a rival US-based VPN provider). You don't trust the company because of that single post on reddit?

dijit 8y ago
It’s possible that the moderators we’re deleting trollish comments. This one didn’t seem like trolling at all, it was well written and it was replied to, which makes it a strong candidate to keep in liu of others.
- karmenblack 8y ago
  Do you think "trolling" cannot be well written? That's a bold statement without backing.
zaarn 8y ago
There were a lot of posts on both the subreddit of ProtonMail and as comments in the threads on there. Plus threads on various privacy subreddits. It was a pretty wide dragnet campaign tbh.
- protonmail 8y ago
  Precisely. This was not the case of a couple accounts, it was hundreds of accounts, on all social media platforms, where a blanket locking of the thread became necessary. On Twitter alone, 500+ accounts: https://twitter.com/conspirator0/status/1036353291662360577 https://twitter.com/conspirator0/status/1036353291662360577
rasengan 8y ago
There was no misinformation put out by PIA. However, I, the co founder of PIA, did in fact link to facts showing that ProtonVPN was a Lithuanian company with the director being the same director as the director of Tesonet and NordVPN. I also did point out that the ProtonVPN android app was signed by Tesonet. This was all done on a hacker news thread. Not reddit - and one time. I simply wanted people to be aware of this, so I said it once, since ProtonVPN is supposed to be a privacy company. For doing this, I have been slandered and defamed and called names by Proton since.

pmoriarty 8y ago

I wouldn't trust any service that claims to respect their users privacy until there are multiple independent, highly respected organizations doing continuous vetting and verification of their claims. That said, I'd still rather use those services than the likes of Facebook, Google, and Microsoft -- who flaunt their contempt for the privacy of their users, or whose business depends on spying on their users and the people their users associate with, and who've demonstrated time and time again that they can't be trusted.

protonmail 8y ago

Proton team here. We are very much against censorship, in fact that's one of our core principles. However, as mentioned on Reddit, we needed to lock the thread because too many bot and fake accounts were posting. Many people fail to appreciate the full extent of the defamation campaign that was waged against ProtonVPN by PIA and others. This was not the case of a couple fake accounts that could be handled with manual moderation. We're talking literally hundreds of accounts trying to spread false information, to the point where it became a case study on fake news: https://twitter.com/conspirator0/status/1036353291662360577 https://twitter.com/conspirator0/status/1036353291662360577 The fact remains that to this day, ProtonVPN remains the only VPN service that has been thoroughly and continuously vetted by an independent third party, Mozilla no less: https://protonvpn.com/blog/mozilla-partnership/ https://protonvpn.com/blog/mozilla-partnership/

rasengan 8y ago
You really need to stop making false claims of some “defamation campaign.” Your business was registered in Lithuania and was owned by the owner of Tesonet/Nord. You signed your Android app with “Tesonet” as the name. I pointed these facts out and linked to them. Ever since, I have seen nothing but slanderous and defamatory attacks from you, as an individual and from Proton. Why do you attack a truthful messenger? Please stop this activity immediately. I’m asking you as a netizen. I did nothing wrong for pointing out these extremely scary peculiarities with ProtonVPN. And now you attack me non stop for sharing facts with the internet one time on hacker news with links to sources - which everyone on HN agreed with and even found more peculiarities. I guess you believe in censorship.
- protonmail 8y ago
  Where this crosses into defamation is using the fact that Proton has a small office in Vilnius (representing <10% of total headcount) to imply, without proof, that Proton is part of some Lithuanian data mining conspiracy. This defamation becomes willful when an attempt is made to spread this to the press and on social media, even after the story has been debunked. The data-mining narrative is false, has been verified as false by third parties, and that's where we would like to leave things. Unfortunately as this false narrative still comes up from time to time, we still need to comment on this from time to time. What we can do from now on, since it bothers you, is to leave PIA out of it when responding. However, that won't change the fact that many people are aware the allegations were first made by PIA. This last point is beyond our reasonable control.