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But it's the same belt for all three? I find it both fascinating and unsettling that there seem to be so many smart people that prefer and defends punitive acti

by jahaja 8y ago

But it's the same belt for all three? I find it both fascinating and unsettling that there seem to be so many smart people that prefer and defends punitive action so reflexively that they will go to great lengths to give it the benefit of the doubt, even without ever doing some background research. Austerity is a great example of this. They intentionally starved the Greek economy to make a political point rather than produce an economically rational deal. Yet, at every anecdata like, HN, The office lunch table, etc. too many assume with confidence they have only themselves to blame and parrot obvious propaganda about the lazy, barely working, tax-dodging Greeks that's applied to them all, bottom-up.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
Austerity is not 'punitive', nor is your assessment of the OP's comment as 'reflective' necessarily correct. "They intentionally starved the Greek economy to make a political point" Greeks are smart people, that they are begging for free money from Germany does not mean that Germany is 'starving' anyone. "parrot obvious propaganda about the lazy, barely working, tax-dodging Greeks that's applied to them all, bottom-up." It's not propaganda - or at least not the 'non tax paying' part. Not only does Greece not have a functional tax system, they also demand to retire earlier with full benefits than workers in other nations. The Greeks have nobody to blame but themselves. Also when you say 'do a deal' what you mean is 'give Greece more free money' - i.e. throw good money after bad. The Germans would in fact, do a deal with the Greeks if they instituted proper economic reforms, by the way, which would not necessarily have to include austerity, but would definitely have to include reform of the tax system, possibly tourism industry etc. etc.. But Greece cannot do that, they are not functional enough to pull it off. The easiest option would be simply to devalue their currency, which they cannot do ... which might give you a clue as to the real source of economic Imperialism that is the Eurozone. Countries that cannot keep their books straight for whatever reason, but are otherwise functional, may have an intrinsic need to devalue their currency. It might be the best way for them to move forward - but the EU does not allow for that ... ... so maybe the Eurozone should be more of a 'trade zone' and less of a currency/political union, as so many people would like.
- jahaja 8y ago
  > The Greeks have nobody to blame but themselves. Thanks for confirming my point so well. It's lovely how bottom-up democratic everything becomes as soon as blame and punishment are being thrown about. > The Germans would in fact, do a deal with the Greeks if they instituted proper economic reforms What do you think austerity is if not widespread drastic "reforms" among other things? The Greeks did go to great lengths to appease the eurogroup but still needed a fundamental debt trimming.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    "It's lovely how bottom-up democratic everything becomes as soon as blame and punishment is being thrown about." --> The Greeks, collectively are responsible for their own destiny, and their problems are essentially of their own making. "as blame and punishment" Your application of such emotional sentiment I think is hiding the reality from you. There is no 'blame'. There is no 'punishment'. There is just reality. The Greeks will thrive and be wealthy when they decide to institute social, cultural and economic reforms that enable them to be wealthy.
    - jahaja 8y ago
      Really? There's some objective reality now in economics and politics? To add insult to injury you also imply that they just haven't been bothered yet to simply fix themselves? I'm sorry, but that's a pathetic reply.
      - repolfx 8y ago
        Why is it pathetic? It does reflect a very real reality. And yes there are "objective realities" in economics and politics and always have been. In economics the objective reality is resource limits. In politics, votes. Have you ever investigated the Greek situation? The country is a basket case of epic proportions. The best description I ever saw of it is "a third world country temporarily able to pretend it's not due to the EU". Tax collection has already been mentioned. There are many other problems. For instance in most countries workers retire at 65. In theory so do Greeks. But not in practice: Greece has the notion of a "arduous and unhealthy job" which lets you retire at 50. Some of the jobs considered so bad you can retire a decade or more early, on a full pension, include trombonist, bakers, masseuses, hairdressers (this job also qualifies as dangerous!), and pastry chefs. The notion that Greeks are hard working is systematically undermined by facts about their own laws. The country lived off borrowed money for many years, and is now being brought back to something resembling the correct level of wealth given their laws and economic fundamentals.

by jahaja 8y ago

sonnyblarney 8y ago

Austerity is not 'punitive', nor is your assessment of the OP's comment as 'reflective' necessarily correct. "They intentionally starved the Greek economy to make a political point" Greeks are smart people, that they are begging for free money from Germany does not mean that Germany is 'starving' anyone. "parrot obvious propaganda about the lazy, barely working, tax-dodging Greeks that's applied to them all, bottom-up." It's not propaganda - or at least not the 'non tax paying' part. Not only does Greece not have a functional tax system, they also demand to retire earlier with full benefits than workers in other nations. The Greeks have nobody to blame but themselves. Also when you say 'do a deal' what you mean is 'give Greece more free money' - i.e. throw good money after bad. The Germans would in fact, do a deal with the Greeks if they instituted proper economic reforms, by the way, which would not necessarily have to include austerity, but would definitely have to include reform of the tax system, possibly tourism industry etc. etc.. But Greece cannot do that, they are not functional enough to pull it off. The easiest option would be simply to devalue their currency, which they cannot do ... which might give you a clue as to the real source of economic Imperialism that is the Eurozone. Countries that cannot keep their books straight for whatever reason, but are otherwise functional, may have an intrinsic need to devalue their currency. It might be the best way for them to move forward - but the EU does not allow for that ... ... so maybe the Eurozone should be more of a 'trade zone' and less of a currency/political union, as so many people would like.

jahaja 8y ago
> The Greeks have nobody to blame but themselves. Thanks for confirming my point so well. It's lovely how bottom-up democratic everything becomes as soon as blame and punishment are being thrown about. > The Germans would in fact, do a deal with the Greeks if they instituted proper economic reforms What do you think austerity is if not widespread drastic "reforms" among other things? The Greeks did go to great lengths to appease the eurogroup but still needed a fundamental debt trimming.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  "It's lovely how bottom-up democratic everything becomes as soon as blame and punishment is being thrown about." --> The Greeks, collectively are responsible for their own destiny, and their problems are essentially of their own making. "as blame and punishment" Your application of such emotional sentiment I think is hiding the reality from you. There is no 'blame'. There is no 'punishment'. There is just reality. The Greeks will thrive and be wealthy when they decide to institute social, cultural and economic reforms that enable them to be wealthy.
  - jahaja 8y ago
    Really? There's some objective reality now in economics and politics? To add insult to injury you also imply that they just haven't been bothered yet to simply fix themselves? I'm sorry, but that's a pathetic reply.
    - repolfx 8y ago
      Why is it pathetic? It does reflect a very real reality. And yes there are "objective realities" in economics and politics and always have been. In economics the objective reality is resource limits. In politics, votes. Have you ever investigated the Greek situation? The country is a basket case of epic proportions. The best description I ever saw of it is "a third world country temporarily able to pretend it's not due to the EU". Tax collection has already been mentioned. There are many other problems. For instance in most countries workers retire at 65. In theory so do Greeks. But not in practice: Greece has the notion of a "arduous and unhealthy job" which lets you retire at 50. Some of the jobs considered so bad you can retire a decade or more early, on a full pension, include trombonist, bakers, masseuses, hairdressers (this job also qualifies as dangerous!), and pastry chefs. The notion that Greeks are hard working is systematically undermined by facts about their own laws. The country lived off borrowed money for many years, and is now being brought back to something resembling the correct level of wealth given their laws and economic fundamentals.