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We need significant, international corporate reform well beyond just tax policy, or Western liberal democracy will be lost as corporate 'citizens' completely do

We need significant, international corporate reform well beyond just tax policy, or Western liberal democracy will be lost as corporate 'citizens' completely dominate the human ones.

bilbo0s 8y ago
Good luck getting everyone to cooperate. Think about it, how much did different cities cooperated when trying to get Amazon's HQ2? That said, you could at least narrow the problem by getting just the US, the EU, and China to cooperate. (But even that strikes me as a Sisyphean task. But what do I know?)
- atq2119 8y ago
  It would be rational for cities and states to lobby for the federal government to introduce legislation which makes the kind of tax breaks that corporations are angling for illegal. Note: it is rational for them to simultaneously compete for corporate investment by offering individual tax breaks and lobby for such tax breaks to be made illegal at the federal level. This is rather hard to explain to many even otherwise intelligent people, but it's one of the most important lessons that game theory has to offer. The EU was acting somewhat in this direction when it forced Ireland to collect taxes from corporations.
  - bilbo0s 8y ago
    I know it's rational game theoretically. The question is would they ever do this? Likely not. Why not? Because of the conflicting political ambitions involved on the part of key decision makers. That's why my idea would be to create laws that make these deals null and void until they are put to a popular vote in the State or City or tax paying entity that will bear the burden of the costs.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    I don't think it's hard to explain: it's the cities' equivalent to cartelization. It's no wonder why two competing firms would like to prevent each other from lowering prices, and they often lobby for laws to do that. The mechanism here is the same.
    - eiaoa 8y ago
      > I don't think it's hard to explain: it's the cities' equivalent to cartelization. It's no wonder why two competing firms would like to prevent each other from lowering prices, and they often lobby for laws to do that. The mechanism here is the same. A city or a state isn't a "firm." It's not seeking the private profit of its owners: it's seeking the welfare of its citizens, which is part of seeking the welfare of all the citizens of a nation. When it comes to government, "cartelization" isn't a bad thing, because it keeps private interests from exploiting public divisions to harm the common good for private gain. Cartels prevent "races to the bottom," but some of those are actually good for society (e.g. the race to the lowest price per unit of product-value). Other races to the bottom are bad for society (e.g. lowest standard of living per worker), and government cohesion can help prevent them by resisting the private interests that benefit.
      - icebraining 8y ago
        I don't disagree with any of that; just saying the mechanism is the same.
- rossdavidh 8y ago
  Another problem in getting cities to cooperate against corporations seeking special deals, is that the "city" is actually "mayor or a few other bigshots", in that those are the people who would actually need to cooperate to get Congress or somebody else to stop this. But, this would deprive those same bigshots of the opportunity to sit in a room with the Amazon CEO (or whoever) and strike a deal. None of them want that. It's not the bigshots themselves who actually lose anything out of those deals, after all; their salaries and perks are untouched.
- platz 8y ago
  Codetermination
enraged_camel 8y ago
In order for this to happen, leftism needs to make a very strong comeback. Unfortunately, the recent trend has been the opposite.
- AsyncAwait 8y ago
  Yes and no. While it is easy to be a right-wing reactionary party these days, they really appeal to people not as much because they're right wing, but mostly because they appear to talk to the people. Now, somebody on the left who does this, but genuinely, like Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn is indeed rather popular, despite a severe disadvantage in media coverage, however neoliberals have unfortunately hijacked the show for the past several decades and are refusing to let go, hindering more Corbyns or Sanders that wish onto the scene.
adwhit 8y ago
Don’t let the language of capitalism mystify you. These companies have shareholders and management. The profits they make go directly to these people. They are the ones getting rich at the expense of everyone else, not some abstract legal entity.
- vannevar 8y ago
  A mob is made of individuals as well, yet it has a life (and destructive power) beyond the will of its individual human components. A human is made up of cells, which benefit or suffer individually, yet that doesn't negate the independent existence of a human being. Don't let the language of capitalism distract you from the underlying reality that we are creating super-entities that we are increasingly subservient to.
- taejo 8y ago
  A corporation is not simply a group of people. It's a group of people with a mission and roles, and that makes all the difference, because people will suppress or just not talk about things that are not related to that mission or to their role.

We need significant, international corporate reform well beyond just tax policy, or Western liberal democracy will be lost as corporate 'citizens' completely dominate the human ones.

bilbo0s 8y ago

Good luck getting everyone to cooperate. Think about it, how much did different cities cooperated when trying to get Amazon's HQ2? That said, you could at least narrow the problem by getting just the US, the EU, and China to cooperate. (But even that strikes me as a Sisyphean task. But what do I know?)

atq2119 8y ago
It would be rational for cities and states to lobby for the federal government to introduce legislation which makes the kind of tax breaks that corporations are angling for illegal. Note: it is rational for them to simultaneously compete for corporate investment by offering individual tax breaks and lobby for such tax breaks to be made illegal at the federal level. This is rather hard to explain to many even otherwise intelligent people, but it's one of the most important lessons that game theory has to offer. The EU was acting somewhat in this direction when it forced Ireland to collect taxes from corporations.
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  I know it's rational game theoretically. The question is would they ever do this? Likely not. Why not? Because of the conflicting political ambitions involved on the part of key decision makers. That's why my idea would be to create laws that make these deals null and void until they are put to a popular vote in the State or City or tax paying entity that will bear the burden of the costs.
- icebraining 8y ago
  I don't think it's hard to explain: it's the cities' equivalent to cartelization. It's no wonder why two competing firms would like to prevent each other from lowering prices, and they often lobby for laws to do that. The mechanism here is the same.
  - eiaoa 8y ago
    > I don't think it's hard to explain: it's the cities' equivalent to cartelization. It's no wonder why two competing firms would like to prevent each other from lowering prices, and they often lobby for laws to do that. The mechanism here is the same. A city or a state isn't a "firm." It's not seeking the private profit of its owners: it's seeking the welfare of its citizens, which is part of seeking the welfare of all the citizens of a nation. When it comes to government, "cartelization" isn't a bad thing, because it keeps private interests from exploiting public divisions to harm the common good for private gain. Cartels prevent "races to the bottom," but some of those are actually good for society (e.g. the race to the lowest price per unit of product-value). Other races to the bottom are bad for society (e.g. lowest standard of living per worker), and government cohesion can help prevent them by resisting the private interests that benefit.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      I don't disagree with any of that; just saying the mechanism is the same.
rossdavidh 8y ago
Another problem in getting cities to cooperate against corporations seeking special deals, is that the "city" is actually "mayor or a few other bigshots", in that those are the people who would actually need to cooperate to get Congress or somebody else to stop this. But, this would deprive those same bigshots of the opportunity to sit in a room with the Amazon CEO (or whoever) and strike a deal. None of them want that. It's not the bigshots themselves who actually lose anything out of those deals, after all; their salaries and perks are untouched.
platz 8y ago
Codetermination

enraged_camel 8y ago

In order for this to happen, leftism needs to make a very strong comeback. Unfortunately, the recent trend has been the opposite.

AsyncAwait 8y ago
Yes and no. While it is easy to be a right-wing reactionary party these days, they really appeal to people not as much because they're right wing, but mostly because they appear to talk to the people. Now, somebody on the left who does this, but genuinely, like Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn is indeed rather popular, despite a severe disadvantage in media coverage, however neoliberals have unfortunately hijacked the show for the past several decades and are refusing to let go, hindering more Corbyns or Sanders that wish onto the scene.

adwhit 8y ago

Don’t let the language of capitalism mystify you. These companies have shareholders and management. The profits they make go directly to these people. They are the ones getting rich at the expense of everyone else, not some abstract legal entity.

vannevar 8y ago
A mob is made of individuals as well, yet it has a life (and destructive power) beyond the will of its individual human components. A human is made up of cells, which benefit or suffer individually, yet that doesn't negate the independent existence of a human being. Don't let the language of capitalism distract you from the underlying reality that we are creating super-entities that we are increasingly subservient to.
taejo 8y ago
A corporation is not simply a group of people. It's a group of people with a mission and roles, and that makes all the difference, because people will suppress or just not talk about things that are not related to that mission or to their role.