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Slight tangent, but @jammygit mentioned in this thread: > "All I want is to be able to give companies my money in exchange for not being spied on, manipulated,

by rayvy 8y ago

Slight tangent, but @jammygit mentioned in this thread: > "All I want is to be able to give companies my money in exchange for not being spied on, manipulated, or locked into some walled garden....Is my money not good enough for them? Can someone elaborate a bit on this idea? Are we at a point where there is something more valuable than money itself? Data? Is this the point where Google et al can say "Nah, we actually don't want your flat out subscription fee cause that's pennies on the dollar compared to what we can get with our data collection efforts" I've made snarky remarks to this kind of thinking in the past but I didn't take it too seriously. Does anyone else see this becoming a real problem? If company XYZ offers service/product A, should I be able to buy that product/service flat out, (if I'm financially able) without bells and whistles even if company XYZ insists on adding bells and whistles? (i.e., data collection). Is that somehow a sort of right as a consumer?

Santosh83 8y ago
Well, as it stands, most companies can collect both money and data. Most of the software we pay for also collects data. We're stuck with them because of lock-in, inertia or lack of alternatives. Why would you give up a situation where you can have your cake and eat it too? As for your last question, I don't believe you can expect privacy just because you pay for a program. It is up to the developers. If they still want to collect your data (with your consent of course) even though you're a paying customer, it may not be ethically exemplary, but it is their call. All you can do is switch software, which as I mentioned, is problematic in many important cases. Hence the borderline abuse.
wtallis 8y ago
In most cases, the product sans spying is sold, but only to other large corporations. The people in charge of selling products like Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB/LTSC won't return your calls if you are just buying for yourself. Since most consumers aren't demanding these options, there isn't a critical mass of individual customers who are willing to pay a price that makes it worth Microsoft's time to pursue those sales. Consumers get stuck with the spyware/adware editions unless they are savvy enough to pirate the no-BS editions.
inetknght 8y ago
Anecdote: I used to pay for Imgur.com pro account. They then removed their subscription model and now have an advertisement-based model. Their advertisements are notoriously... not well intentioned to the end-user. And I would be very surprised if Imgur is not selling user data. I'm actually very upset about that. Another anecdote: Spotify. I don't use that. https://twitter.com/mikarv/status/1012386696934182912 https://twitter.com/mikarv/status/1012386696934182912 Another anecdote: DI.fm. I do use that. I pay for a pro subscription. Unfortunately their privacy policy makes it clear that they do sell tracking metrics to advertisers (double-dipping). Then there's, of course, Microsoft. Clearly they track users. How can you guarantee that they don't sell your data to third parties neither now nor in the future? > If company XYZ offers service/product A, should I be able to buy that product/service flat out, (if I'm financially able) without bells and whistles even if company XYZ insists on adding bells and whistles? (i.e., data collection). Is that somehow a sort of right as a consumer? I absolutely 100% believe that this should be an ability for end-users to do. Buy the product and provide the ability to 100% disable telemetry.
- therealdrag0 8y ago
  I don't think we should conflate telemetry with general user data that can be sold. Seeing HOW a user uses an app (re your Spotify example) is useful for the developers of the app. That is not data they are selling to other companies and IMO isn't a privacy issue and shouldn't negatively affect user experience. What theme you use or what buttons you click most often, isn't sellable; what is sellable are interests, consumables, and demographic distinguishers.
  - inetknght 8y ago
    Seeing HOW I use an app can be a perceived privacy issue. It definitely can negatively affect user experience. Case in point: limited bandwidth and/or high latency, especially if the telemetry is transmitted with synchronous communication. What theme I use is sellable, especially if themes can be purchased. What buttons I click most often is also sellable by making it known what features would attract the most advertisements or what kind of data drives my use of the application.
seanalltogether 8y ago
Maybe the problem is that customer service doesn't scale well, while ads/data collection do. Suppose you wanted to pay X dollars to have an ad free / data collection free facebook experience. How many employees would facebook have to hire per user to deliver that service. At the moment facebook gets to push off customer support to "community managers" or message boards, but that doesn't fly when you're paying money.

by rayvy 8y ago

Santosh83 8y ago

Well, as it stands, most companies can collect both money and data. Most of the software we pay for also collects data. We're stuck with them because of lock-in, inertia or lack of alternatives. Why would you give up a situation where you can have your cake and eat it too? As for your last question, I don't believe you can expect privacy just because you pay for a program. It is up to the developers. If they still want to collect your data (with your consent of course) even though you're a paying customer, it may not be ethically exemplary, but it is their call. All you can do is switch software, which as I mentioned, is problematic in many important cases. Hence the borderline abuse.

wtallis 8y ago

In most cases, the product sans spying is sold, but only to other large corporations. The people in charge of selling products like Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB/LTSC won't return your calls if you are just buying for yourself. Since most consumers aren't demanding these options, there isn't a critical mass of individual customers who are willing to pay a price that makes it worth Microsoft's time to pursue those sales. Consumers get stuck with the spyware/adware editions unless they are savvy enough to pirate the no-BS editions.

inetknght 8y ago

Anecdote: I used to pay for Imgur.com pro account. They then removed their subscription model and now have an advertisement-based model. Their advertisements are notoriously... not well intentioned to the end-user. And I would be very surprised if Imgur is not selling user data. I'm actually very upset about that. Another anecdote: Spotify. I don't use that. https://twitter.com/mikarv/status/1012386696934182912 https://twitter.com/mikarv/status/1012386696934182912 Another anecdote: DI.fm. I do use that. I pay for a pro subscription. Unfortunately their privacy policy makes it clear that they do sell tracking metrics to advertisers (double-dipping). Then there's, of course, Microsoft. Clearly they track users. How can you guarantee that they don't sell your data to third parties neither now nor in the future? > If company XYZ offers service/product A, should I be able to buy that product/service flat out, (if I'm financially able) without bells and whistles even if company XYZ insists on adding bells and whistles? (i.e., data collection). Is that somehow a sort of right as a consumer? I absolutely 100% believe that this should be an ability for end-users to do. Buy the product and provide the ability to 100% disable telemetry.

therealdrag0 8y ago
I don't think we should conflate telemetry with general user data that can be sold. Seeing HOW a user uses an app (re your Spotify example) is useful for the developers of the app. That is not data they are selling to other companies and IMO isn't a privacy issue and shouldn't negatively affect user experience. What theme you use or what buttons you click most often, isn't sellable; what is sellable are interests, consumables, and demographic distinguishers.
- inetknght 8y ago
  Seeing HOW I use an app can be a perceived privacy issue. It definitely can negatively affect user experience. Case in point: limited bandwidth and/or high latency, especially if the telemetry is transmitted with synchronous communication. What theme I use is sellable, especially if themes can be purchased. What buttons I click most often is also sellable by making it known what features would attract the most advertisements or what kind of data drives my use of the application.

seanalltogether 8y ago

Maybe the problem is that customer service doesn't scale well, while ads/data collection do. Suppose you wanted to pay X dollars to have an ad free / data collection free facebook experience. How many employees would facebook have to hire per user to deliver that service. At the moment facebook gets to push off customer support to "community managers" or message boards, but that doesn't fly when you're paying money.