3 ms·

why not ? What's to say that mental computations can't come in discrete units ? Maybe communication about the past is a self-contained computation that can evo

why not ? What's to say that mental computations can't come in discrete units ? Maybe communication about the past is a self-contained computation that can evolve independently in brain networks as diverse as those of bees, orangutans and humans

subroutine 8y ago
It's not impossible, just highly improbable given everything we know about population genetics and behavioral neuroscience. It seems their claim is based on a single behavior that was selected because they observed it during field study and found it interesting. They confirmed the behavior in their experiment; this itself would have been an interesting report. To make a Science paper out of it though, it needed to be framed as a study about some uniquely human capacity (since we can't get over ourselves, and love being reminded of our big brains). However, as far as uniquely human cognitive capacities go, I've not heard of this one yet. And seemed like a pretty outlandish claim given my Australian Shepard will paw at a basket containing her leash while looking at me - which seems very much like she is trying to convey to me some info she learned in the past.
- vbuwivbiu 8y ago
  and I guess delayed signalling implies mental time travel and consciousness, which being special and mysterious to us implies an expensive process - but maybe consciousness isn't expensive, and maybe it can be of only certain discrete things (like whatever bees might be conscious of). Dogs like yours are undoubtedly conscious.
  - subroutine 8y ago
    Yea, I agree. It's plausible. To clarify, I'm not at all saying bees aren't capable of conveying learned information. My position is that you, me, my dog, birds, bees, orangutans... we all seem to have this capacity. In fact, it seems more like a ubiquitous capacity, than a uniquely human capacity. The authors of this paper don't agree though; instead they are promulgating the idea that "Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past". Which directly implies that Chimps and Bonobos never refer to learned information in their conspecific communications. Maybe they don't engage in delayed warning calls after exposure to a predator, for whatever adaptive reason. Nevertheless, I'd bet the farm Chimps refer to episodic or declarative memories is some way/shape/form in some instances of communication (and I'll double down, given the criteria is only 2-minutes elapsed time since the referenced event took place).

subroutine 8y ago

It's not impossible, just highly improbable given everything we know about population genetics and behavioral neuroscience. It seems their claim is based on a single behavior that was selected because they observed it during field study and found it interesting. They confirmed the behavior in their experiment; this itself would have been an interesting report. To make a Science paper out of it though, it needed to be framed as a study about some uniquely human capacity (since we can't get over ourselves, and love being reminded of our big brains). However, as far as uniquely human cognitive capacities go, I've not heard of this one yet. And seemed like a pretty outlandish claim given my Australian Shepard will paw at a basket containing her leash while looking at me - which seems very much like she is trying to convey to me some info she learned in the past.

vbuwivbiu 8y ago
and I guess delayed signalling implies mental time travel and consciousness, which being special and mysterious to us implies an expensive process - but maybe consciousness isn't expensive, and maybe it can be of only certain discrete things (like whatever bees might be conscious of). Dogs like yours are undoubtedly conscious.
- subroutine 8y ago
  Yea, I agree. It's plausible. To clarify, I'm not at all saying bees aren't capable of conveying learned information. My position is that you, me, my dog, birds, bees, orangutans... we all seem to have this capacity. In fact, it seems more like a ubiquitous capacity, than a uniquely human capacity. The authors of this paper don't agree though; instead they are promulgating the idea that "Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past". Which directly implies that Chimps and Bonobos never refer to learned information in their conspecific communications. Maybe they don't engage in delayed warning calls after exposure to a predator, for whatever adaptive reason. Nevertheless, I'd bet the farm Chimps refer to episodic or declarative memories is some way/shape/form in some instances of communication (and I'll double down, given the criteria is only 2-minutes elapsed time since the referenced event took place).