4 ms·

I agree with the general call for skepticism against the idea that displaced reference is so unique in the animal kingdom. Where I do not agree, is the implicit

I agree with the general call for skepticism against the idea that displaced reference is so unique in the animal kingdom. Where I do not agree, is the implicit argument of "if a bee can do it then it's trivial". Within the animal kingdom, the sophistication of the honey bee's waggle dance, with predicates and combinable to a large number of phrases, is rare. The only other major example I can think of are primate calls. Bees are also highly intelligent; on a watt for watt, pound for bound basis, their only other rival might be the portia spider. Bees can communicate angles, distance and adjust for the movement of the sun when relaying these. They can learn abstract patterns and generalize. If you asked me which was more intelligent, the honey bee or the chicken, I'd be hard pressed to give an answer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bee_learning_and_communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bee_learning_and_communication

subroutine 8y ago
Ok, I'll ask - is a bird or a honey bee more intelligent? Before you answer, let me just say a few things... Pound-for-pound honey bees are indeed impressive. I actually didn't know all of those things, so thank you for sharing. Since I am no bee expert, I can only offer general principles. But yeah, that's a lot of fancy behaviors crammed into just ~1 million neurons; great optimization. However, with so few neurons, and so many programmed tasks, it leaves very little room for flexibility in their behavioral responses, which are likely to be exceptionally dependent on environment stability (see #1). I assume most people would include behavioral flexibility in their working-definition of intelligence. So it would make sense to consider not just the total number of behaviors an animal can perform, but also the degree of cognitive plasticity baked-in to the system overall. Birds also display an exceptional repertoire of behavior, despite their bird-brain (#2). Youtube has endless examples of birds doing incredible and hilarious things beyond flying and singing. For example I remember watching a few vids on Bowerbirds not too long ago, which build incredibly elaborate domiciles in an attempt to impress their lady friends; the ones making nests near urban areas were incorporating a lot of colorful man-made trinkets they scavenged from the big city to woo the ladies (which I think suggests some level of flexibility). Crows are even more impressive. These birds are so smart they get bored; and when they do, sometimes they like to fuck with other animals for entertainment (or so it seems). Also this: #3. I think chickens could potentially display similar highly adaptable behaviors; but they are written-off as nitwits because you often find them as the product of being stuffed into a cage for 18 hours a day, and all basic needs taken care of by humans. I hold the same prejudice to the rats in my lab (good for nothing idiot rats, can't learn jack, so lazy); until I see a rat in the wild and it's all athletic and reading books and stuff. All that said, I actually agree with your sentiment - that you cannot assume certain species are more or less intelligent than others, simply based on the relative sizes of their brain. However, if you take humans as the gold-standard for a highly intelligent species on Earth, and someone starts talking smack about our cousin being dumber than a honey bee, I'm going to take some liberties to make some sweeping generalizations of my own... but yeah, thanks for reeling me in on this. Apologies to the honey bee. #1. This is highly speculative, but behavioral inflexibility might be a contributing reason to the unprecedented rate of Colony Collapse Disorder we are seeing in western honey bees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder. #2."Birds are remarkably intelligent, although their brains are small. Corvids and some parrots are capable of cognitive feats comparable to those of great apes. Olkowicz, et al. (2016) "Birds have primate-like numbers of neurons in the forebrain". https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4932926/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4932926/ #3. Parrot singing Drowning Pool song https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uguXNL93fWg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uguXNL93fWg
- Kapow 8y ago
  > the ones making nests near urban areas were incorporating a lot of colorful man-made trinkets they scavenged from the big city to woo the ladies (which I think suggests some level of flexibility). If they avoided man-made objects, that would indicate that they're smart enough to tell the difference. They're just grabbing any object they find that stands out. If anything, that implies less intelligence.
  - antidesitter 8y ago
    > If they avoided man-made objects, that would indicate that they're smart enough to tell the difference... If anything, that implies less intelligence. Are you assuming there's something "wrong" with using the colorful man-made trinkets?
    - 13years 8y ago
      Cultural appropriation?
  - creep 8y ago
    >If they avoided man-made objects, that would indicate that they're smart enough to tell the difference. Perhaps bower birds don't give a fuck if the object is man-made or not? Ignoring vs not ignoring man-made objects could indicate a lot of things. Maybe ignoring man-made objects is an indication of instinctual fear, which would imply less adaptability and therefore less intelligence?
- ArchTypical 8y ago
  > is a bird or a honey bee more intelligent? That's a broader question than chicken or bee. A crow is definitely more intelligent than a bee.
- Cybiote 8y ago
  Indeed, I completely agree that some birds are very intelligent, managing to pack quite a lot of punch in such a small package. Parrots, corvids, even pigeons are examples of such intelligent birds. This is why I was careful to select Chickens as the example that I did. Near the 48th second of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exsrX6qsKkA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exsrX6qsKkA, you can see the bumble bee actually hesitating to work out which option will yield a reward for the least amount of effort. That kind of laziness is an excellent display of flexibility and intelligence. It's also interesting that you mention colony collapse. If as is likely, neonicotinoids play a significant role in colony collapse then the bee's sensitivity to disruptions in acetlycholine pathways is an argument for their relying heavily on cognition for foraging and navigation. But yeah, I'm not saying bees are just as intelligent as primates, corvids or parrots; just that they too are capable of quite unique sophisticated behaviors and learning.

subroutine 8y ago

Ok, I'll ask - is a bird or a honey bee more intelligent? Before you answer, let me just say a few things... Pound-for-pound honey bees are indeed impressive. I actually didn't know all of those things, so thank you for sharing. Since I am no bee expert, I can only offer general principles. But yeah, that's a lot of fancy behaviors crammed into just ~1 million neurons; great optimization. However, with so few neurons, and so many programmed tasks, it leaves very little room for flexibility in their behavioral responses, which are likely to be exceptionally dependent on environment stability (see #1). I assume most people would include behavioral flexibility in their working-definition of intelligence. So it would make sense to consider not just the total number of behaviors an animal can perform, but also the degree of cognitive plasticity baked-in to the system overall. Birds also display an exceptional repertoire of behavior, despite their bird-brain (#2). Youtube has endless examples of birds doing incredible and hilarious things beyond flying and singing. For example I remember watching a few vids on Bowerbirds not too long ago, which build incredibly elaborate domiciles in an attempt to impress their lady friends; the ones making nests near urban areas were incorporating a lot of colorful man-made trinkets they scavenged from the big city to woo the ladies (which I think suggests some level of flexibility). Crows are even more impressive. These birds are so smart they get bored; and when they do, sometimes they like to fuck with other animals for entertainment (or so it seems). Also this: #3. I think chickens could potentially display similar highly adaptable behaviors; but they are written-off as nitwits because you often find them as the product of being stuffed into a cage for 18 hours a day, and all basic needs taken care of by humans. I hold the same prejudice to the rats in my lab (good for nothing idiot rats, can't learn jack, so lazy); until I see a rat in the wild and it's all athletic and reading books and stuff. All that said, I actually agree with your sentiment - that you cannot assume certain species are more or less intelligent than others, simply based on the relative sizes of their brain. However, if you take humans as the gold-standard for a highly intelligent species on Earth, and someone starts talking smack about our cousin being dumber than a honey bee, I'm going to take some liberties to make some sweeping generalizations of my own... but yeah, thanks for reeling me in on this. Apologies to the honey bee. #1. This is highly speculative, but behavioral inflexibility might be a contributing reason to the unprecedented rate of Colony Collapse Disorder we are seeing in western honey bees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder. #2."Birds are remarkably intelligent, although their brains are small. Corvids and some parrots are capable of cognitive feats comparable to those of great apes. Olkowicz, et al. (2016) "Birds have primate-like numbers of neurons in the forebrain". https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4932926/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4932926/ #3. Parrot singing Drowning Pool song https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uguXNL93fWg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uguXNL93fWg

Kapow 8y ago
> the ones making nests near urban areas were incorporating a lot of colorful man-made trinkets they scavenged from the big city to woo the ladies (which I think suggests some level of flexibility). If they avoided man-made objects, that would indicate that they're smart enough to tell the difference. They're just grabbing any object they find that stands out. If anything, that implies less intelligence.
- antidesitter 8y ago
  > If they avoided man-made objects, that would indicate that they're smart enough to tell the difference... If anything, that implies less intelligence. Are you assuming there's something "wrong" with using the colorful man-made trinkets?
  - 13years 8y ago
    Cultural appropriation?
- creep 8y ago
  >If they avoided man-made objects, that would indicate that they're smart enough to tell the difference. Perhaps bower birds don't give a fuck if the object is man-made or not? Ignoring vs not ignoring man-made objects could indicate a lot of things. Maybe ignoring man-made objects is an indication of instinctual fear, which would imply less adaptability and therefore less intelligence?
ArchTypical 8y ago
> is a bird or a honey bee more intelligent? That's a broader question than chicken or bee. A crow is definitely more intelligent than a bee.
Cybiote 8y ago
Indeed, I completely agree that some birds are very intelligent, managing to pack quite a lot of punch in such a small package. Parrots, corvids, even pigeons are examples of such intelligent birds. This is why I was careful to select Chickens as the example that I did. Near the 48th second of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exsrX6qsKkA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exsrX6qsKkA, you can see the bumble bee actually hesitating to work out which option will yield a reward for the least amount of effort. That kind of laziness is an excellent display of flexibility and intelligence. It's also interesting that you mention colony collapse. If as is likely, neonicotinoids play a significant role in colony collapse then the bee's sensitivity to disruptions in acetlycholine pathways is an argument for their relying heavily on cognition for foraging and navigation. But yeah, I'm not saying bees are just as intelligent as primates, corvids or parrots; just that they too are capable of quite unique sophisticated behaviors and learning.