5 ms·

It might be accurate to model his operations in two phases. The first, when he was exposing secrets on his own. The second, when (it seems) Russia used him as a

It might be accurate to model his operations in two phases. The first, when he was exposing secrets on his own. The second, when (it seems) Russia used him as a deniable way to launder secrets they had stolen into the American press. Exactly when one phase begins and the other ends, whether he knew it was happening at the time, and whether he committed any crimes against the United States during the second phase is murky. Maybe he really should be in trouble for things he did in his second phase; his first phase doesn't mean he didn't commit several crimes later. (this same argument works for Snowden. There are some who argue- without much evidence- that he was always a Russian asset, because he ended up there; but his eventual landing in Russia doesn't retroactively prove he was a Russian agent all along)

hnmonkey 8y ago
I agree with you somewhat. It seems that he initially wanted to buck the system and expose secrets for the purpose of exposing secrets and anarchy. It's possible this was a fantastic cover and he's always worked at someone's behest. Agreed completely with your 2nd phase. I don't think it works for Snowden. I actually believe he was ardently an American patriot who wanted to expose what he thought were illegalities and essentially corruption but didn't think he's survive or get a fair trial here (both of which are unfortunately very possible). I don't think he ended up in Russia at his choosing. I believe he had an original destination in mind (correct me if I'm wrong) but wasn't able to get there before his visa/passport was revoked? Something like that.
- 4ad 8y ago
  > I actually believe he was ardently an American patriot Assange is Australian.
  - kjeetgill 8y ago
    They're reffering to Snowden.
  - hnmonkey 8y ago
    The second paragraph wholly refers to Snowden as referenced in the first sentence of it.
- roywiggins 8y ago
  Yup, I'm agreeing with you there- I don't think Snowden ever intended to end up exiled in Russia. He might be beholden to the Russians now- for his physical safety- he's very likely more blameless in that than Assange might be, I haven't seen actual evidence that he wanted to end up in Russia. Whereas Assange might have (depending on the facts) happily taken help from the Russian state in the name of sowing chaos. Assange has no particular ties to the US, and might have found a way to square it with whatever his morals are. Or he found an encrypted archive in his email and he just published it, provenance unknown.
- lern_too_spel 8y ago
  He absolutely didn't end up in Russia of his own choosing. He planned to stay in Hong Kong, and he leaked a list of hacked Chinese targets in an attempt to gain the PRC's favor, but they kicked him out as soon as he had nothing more of interest, just as you would expect. https://amp.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266777/exclusive-snowden-safe-hong-kong-more-us-cyberspying-details-revealed https://amp.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266777/exclusiv...
wallace_f 8y ago
>Russia used him as a deniable way to launder secrets they had stolen into the American press. I have never seen proof of this accusation? Can you link me to it? Not the accusation, but proof? What is it: was he "used" like you said, or mislead, or intentionally aiding Russia? To be fair the DWS scandal is a real problem, a big deal, and a threat to our democracy... and nobody was seriously punished for that. DWS is hardly the pariah that Assange is. And this happened during your second phase.
- hnmonkey 8y ago
  There's literal proof throughout this post. In fact, I posted some too. There are definitely levels of threats to American democracy. If DWS refers to Wasserman-Schultz then it pales in comparison to an enemy foreign state's military intelligence corrupting the American government.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - wallace_f 8y ago
    See you keep saying you can convince me, but still wont show me the proot that will. Do you really believe the Iraq Warlogs revealing death, torture, war crimes, and lying is somehow worse than literally subverting American democracy in a presidential primary? Now, I don't want to defend Assange's every single motive, but the DWS scandal was pure corruption, while for whatever bad Assange has done that you keep promising to show me, he has clearly shown bravery in doing some good along the way. And by the way, revealing war crimes is not anti-American. Liberty and justice are American principles. There will always be corruption and always a need to reveal it.
    - hnmonkey 8y ago
      > Do you really believe the Iraq Warlogs revealing death, torture, war crimes, and lying is somehow worse than literally subverting American democracy in a presidential primary? It's interesting... you're asking me if I really believe something that I didn't ever say and implying I did. I actually compared the Wasserman-Schultz situation (which I think is incredibly overblown) to a sovereign foreign government's military intelligence corrupting the American government. And yes, when comparing those two things, the latter is far more worse.
krrrh 8y ago
Let's recall the time that Wikileaks promoted unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about the Panama Papers which contained loads of damaging information about Putin (along with plenty of well-known westerners), in a blatant attempt to redirect the spotlight off of Russian corruption. The official Wikileaks twitter account essentially providing the outline for a propaganda piece on RT within hours. https://www.rt.com/news/338683-wikileaks-usaid-putin-attack/ https://www.rt.com/news/338683-wikileaks-usaid-putin-attack/ And of course he did produce a TV show for Russian state television. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tomorrow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tomorrow

hnmonkey 8y ago

I agree with you somewhat. It seems that he initially wanted to buck the system and expose secrets for the purpose of exposing secrets and anarchy. It's possible this was a fantastic cover and he's always worked at someone's behest. Agreed completely with your 2nd phase. I don't think it works for Snowden. I actually believe he was ardently an American patriot who wanted to expose what he thought were illegalities and essentially corruption but didn't think he's survive or get a fair trial here (both of which are unfortunately very possible). I don't think he ended up in Russia at his choosing. I believe he had an original destination in mind (correct me if I'm wrong) but wasn't able to get there before his visa/passport was revoked? Something like that.

4ad 8y ago
> I actually believe he was ardently an American patriot Assange is Australian.
- kjeetgill 8y ago
  They're reffering to Snowden.
- hnmonkey 8y ago
  The second paragraph wholly refers to Snowden as referenced in the first sentence of it.
roywiggins 8y ago
Yup, I'm agreeing with you there- I don't think Snowden ever intended to end up exiled in Russia. He might be beholden to the Russians now- for his physical safety- he's very likely more blameless in that than Assange might be, I haven't seen actual evidence that he wanted to end up in Russia. Whereas Assange might have (depending on the facts) happily taken help from the Russian state in the name of sowing chaos. Assange has no particular ties to the US, and might have found a way to square it with whatever his morals are. Or he found an encrypted archive in his email and he just published it, provenance unknown.
lern_too_spel 8y ago
He absolutely didn't end up in Russia of his own choosing. He planned to stay in Hong Kong, and he leaked a list of hacked Chinese targets in an attempt to gain the PRC's favor, but they kicked him out as soon as he had nothing more of interest, just as you would expect. https://amp.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266777/exclusive-snowden-safe-hong-kong-more-us-cyberspying-details-revealed https://amp.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266777/exclusiv...

wallace_f 8y ago

>Russia used him as a deniable way to launder secrets they had stolen into the American press. I have never seen proof of this accusation? Can you link me to it? Not the accusation, but proof? What is it: was he "used" like you said, or mislead, or intentionally aiding Russia? To be fair the DWS scandal is a real problem, a big deal, and a threat to our democracy... and nobody was seriously punished for that. DWS is hardly the pariah that Assange is. And this happened during your second phase.

hnmonkey 8y ago
There's literal proof throughout this post. In fact, I posted some too. There are definitely levels of threats to American democracy. If DWS refers to Wasserman-Schultz then it pales in comparison to an enemy foreign state's military intelligence corrupting the American government.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- wallace_f 8y ago
  See you keep saying you can convince me, but still wont show me the proot that will. Do you really believe the Iraq Warlogs revealing death, torture, war crimes, and lying is somehow worse than literally subverting American democracy in a presidential primary? Now, I don't want to defend Assange's every single motive, but the DWS scandal was pure corruption, while for whatever bad Assange has done that you keep promising to show me, he has clearly shown bravery in doing some good along the way. And by the way, revealing war crimes is not anti-American. Liberty and justice are American principles. There will always be corruption and always a need to reveal it.
  - hnmonkey 8y ago
    > Do you really believe the Iraq Warlogs revealing death, torture, war crimes, and lying is somehow worse than literally subverting American democracy in a presidential primary? It's interesting... you're asking me if I really believe something that I didn't ever say and implying I did. I actually compared the Wasserman-Schultz situation (which I think is incredibly overblown) to a sovereign foreign government's military intelligence corrupting the American government. And yes, when comparing those two things, the latter is far more worse.

krrrh 8y ago

Let's recall the time that Wikileaks promoted unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about the Panama Papers which contained loads of damaging information about Putin (along with plenty of well-known westerners), in a blatant attempt to redirect the spotlight off of Russian corruption. The official Wikileaks twitter account essentially providing the outline for a propaganda piece on RT within hours. https://www.rt.com/news/338683-wikileaks-usaid-putin-attack/ https://www.rt.com/news/338683-wikileaks-usaid-putin-attack/ And of course he did produce a TV show for Russian state television. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tomorrow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tomorrow