4 ms·

I know we're collectively no fans of anecdata but I get a strong feeling that attitudes to typical work are changing, that jobs are making more people miserable

by prawn 8y ago

I know we're collectively no fans of anecdata but I get a strong feeling that attitudes to typical work are changing, that jobs are making more people miserable. I get asked a lot by people seeking to do something different; I guess they're bombarded by successful side hustle stories and never by "I love my 9-5 day job, it's so rewarding" stories.

diogenescynic 8y ago
>I know we're collectively no fans of anecdata but I get a strong feeling that attitudes to typical work are changing, that jobs are making more people miserable I tend to agree. My parents have completely different stories about their experiences with work 40 years ago. Much less stress, better pay, more mentorship, less competition, and lower demands generally. I’m sure part of that’s nostalgia, but nearly everyone I talk to seems to be miserable at their job anymore. There are rarely people who say they enjoy their job and want to do that exact thing until they retire.
- hopefulengineer 8y ago
  Older family friend made $30/hr in the 60-70s with pension and benefits working in a meat packing plant with a high school education. Same job today pays $15/hr with no benefits thanks to illegal immigration. There's a reason people like the Koch brothers spend millions in support of illegal immigration, they wanted to drive down the labor cost for jobs like the above. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0 Offshoring and illegal immigration has killed low skill jobs and given billion dollar multinational corporations the ability to demand whatever they want from workers because they have unlimited labor supply. This doesn't just effect low skill labor either, it forces more people to go to college and take on debt which then drives down the wages of high skill work as well. It's a scam and the american people should be angry
  - octonion 8y ago
    The root cause is the destruction of unions and worker's rights. It has nothing to do with legal or illegal immigration.
    - pike1 8y ago
      For a limited number of positions, if you have a bigger pool of people to hire from, the wages will automatically go down. This is simple economics. While the union effect might also be playing a role, it's curious that you rush to deny the big obvious factor while propping up a relatively minor reasoning factor as a primary one.
      - codyb 8y ago
        Probably because it seems doubtful that ten million people (the estimated number of illegal aliens in the US), tanked wages for everyone in a country of 330 million. It's curious you immediately point to illegal immigration as the big obvious factor with no citations to support your claims. The fact is wages have been stagnating since the seventies and most people attribute that to the weakening of unions, offshoring, and automation before illegal immigration. The US is producing twice as much today as it was in 1984 with a third less workers. That seems like it'd have a much bigger impact to me. And painting immigrants as the reason American's qualities of life has dropped off seems disingenuous, simplistic, and prejudiced.
  - DrJosiah 8y ago
    1. I think your heart might be in the right place, but I think your facts are mistaken / misunderstood. 2. Kochs are horrible people, but historically their union-busting, and other worker rights protection attacks are the cause of income falling at their refineries and other family-owned manufacturing plants in MN, WI, KS, etc. (If you want to see what full-on Koch / Republican leadership does to a place, look at what Kansas has become). 3. You (and Ezra, and most of the watchers) misunderstand Bernie Sanders in a few ways. Yes, low income earners would be great for Koch, but Koch is happy to pay Americans low income. Because they don't need foreign workers if they just pay American politicians to screw American workers out of worker protections, health care, etc: https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/recips.php?id=d000000186 https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/recips.php?id=d000000186 4. Misunderstanding Bernie #2: open borders was brought up in the context of increasing immigration as an opening question. And Bernie said it was a Republican idea / Koch brothers idea because the context in July 2015 was that it is a Boogeyman. It was created as an idea to scare politically conservative people away from the "left" / "Democrats", as a "these crazy Democrats want open borders", not that anyone ever actually proposed as much. How do I know? Because that shit came back again this summer, making the same claims that Dems want open borders, which again had to be put down. 5. The vast majority of illegal immigrant held jobs in the United States are not jobs that Americans want to do. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-us-economy-farm-workers-taxes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-us-economy-f... Maybe the Kochs are different in Texas, but most of what I've seen from them has been pretty consistent with: https://www.sanders.senate.gov/koch-brothers https://www.sanders.senate.gov/koch-brothers So yeah, hate the Kochs. Please. They are not good people. But hate them for the right reasons, not because you think they are pro illegal immigration or pro open borders (they aren't).
- xg15 8y ago
  I wonder if (apart from the points about workers' rights) this is also a "softer" consequence of automation: Yes, there will still be jobs, but those jobs will generally be more competitive and stressful and less straight-forward, because all "straight-forward" work can eventually be automated.
InclinedPlane 8y ago
"Typical work" is changing. It used to be possible to get ahead pretty easily. Work reasonably diligently (but not excessively so) in average income jobs and you could buy a house, accrue wealth, etc. You would have a lot more options on how you lived your life. Having a house with a paid off mortgage gives you enormous freedom, you can work for an average income that is well below what would normally be acceptable and yet still pay all of your bills (since you don't have rent). You could switch careers, become an entrepreneur, simply build your wealth, go on extended travel, indulge your hobbies, etc. Or, you could simply build a family, have the ability to spend plenty of time with them without having both parents working 40, 50, or 60 hour work weeks constantly with no time off, you could go on vacations with them, you could ensure their financial well being by being there for them when needed and helping them pay for college, their first car, their first house, etc, etc, etc. All of the typical "American dream" stuff that used to be possible in the mid-20th century. Today a lot of that is not possible. People can't afford to have children because they are crushed under debt and burdened by low wages and high costs of living. They can't afford to indulge their hobbies, travel, take vacations, switch careers, or become entrepreneurs because it would be financial suicide to do so without having some sort of benefactor already. People end up working diligently for years and decades with little to show for it. No personal wealth, no home ownership, no family, no personal freedom, no stature from career growth, etc. And it's not because the money isn't there, the economy has grown like crazy over the last 40 years, it's because the gains have been gobbled up by those who are already rich and powerful. CEO pay, corporate profits, low minimum wages, busted up unions, tax revolts. When I was a child the old saying went "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer", but it wasn't really true, the economy grew and even when the rich did get richer the poor still got richer even so. But in my lifetime that saying has become true. The rich get richer and the bottom half of the economy stagnates, and they get foreclosed on, evicted, driven out of work, made felons by the "war on drugs", etc, etc, etc, and their lives become more miserable. Our cities start acquiring barrios, slums, and shanty towns like barnacles, just like those in the 3rd world, just like those where corruption, iniquity, and injustice are the norm. Our economy creeps ever closer toward becoming a crony capitalist kleptocracy, if it isn't already. And the worst of all is that people think things aren't so bad because things aren't so bad for them yet. History is not going to look kindly on this era, nor will it draw as sharp a line between it and the more barbarous 20th century, 19th century, or even the middle ages. We have a chance to make the world a better place but only by acknowledging the problems that exist and moving forward with concerted effort.

by prawn 8y ago

diogenescynic 8y ago

>I know we're collectively no fans of anecdata but I get a strong feeling that attitudes to typical work are changing, that jobs are making more people miserable I tend to agree. My parents have completely different stories about their experiences with work 40 years ago. Much less stress, better pay, more mentorship, less competition, and lower demands generally. I’m sure part of that’s nostalgia, but nearly everyone I talk to seems to be miserable at their job anymore. There are rarely people who say they enjoy their job and want to do that exact thing until they retire.

hopefulengineer 8y ago
Older family friend made $30/hr in the 60-70s with pension and benefits working in a meat packing plant with a high school education. Same job today pays $15/hr with no benefits thanks to illegal immigration. There's a reason people like the Koch brothers spend millions in support of illegal immigration, they wanted to drive down the labor cost for jobs like the above. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf-k6qOfXz0 Offshoring and illegal immigration has killed low skill jobs and given billion dollar multinational corporations the ability to demand whatever they want from workers because they have unlimited labor supply. This doesn't just effect low skill labor either, it forces more people to go to college and take on debt which then drives down the wages of high skill work as well. It's a scam and the american people should be angry
- octonion 8y ago
  The root cause is the destruction of unions and worker's rights. It has nothing to do with legal or illegal immigration.
  - pike1 8y ago
    For a limited number of positions, if you have a bigger pool of people to hire from, the wages will automatically go down. This is simple economics. While the union effect might also be playing a role, it's curious that you rush to deny the big obvious factor while propping up a relatively minor reasoning factor as a primary one.
    - codyb 8y ago
      Probably because it seems doubtful that ten million people (the estimated number of illegal aliens in the US), tanked wages for everyone in a country of 330 million. It's curious you immediately point to illegal immigration as the big obvious factor with no citations to support your claims. The fact is wages have been stagnating since the seventies and most people attribute that to the weakening of unions, offshoring, and automation before illegal immigration. The US is producing twice as much today as it was in 1984 with a third less workers. That seems like it'd have a much bigger impact to me. And painting immigrants as the reason American's qualities of life has dropped off seems disingenuous, simplistic, and prejudiced.
- DrJosiah 8y ago
  1. I think your heart might be in the right place, but I think your facts are mistaken / misunderstood. 2. Kochs are horrible people, but historically their union-busting, and other worker rights protection attacks are the cause of income falling at their refineries and other family-owned manufacturing plants in MN, WI, KS, etc. (If you want to see what full-on Koch / Republican leadership does to a place, look at what Kansas has become). 3. You (and Ezra, and most of the watchers) misunderstand Bernie Sanders in a few ways. Yes, low income earners would be great for Koch, but Koch is happy to pay Americans low income. Because they don't need foreign workers if they just pay American politicians to screw American workers out of worker protections, health care, etc: https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/recips.php?id=d000000186 https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/recips.php?id=d000000186 4. Misunderstanding Bernie #2: open borders was brought up in the context of increasing immigration as an opening question. And Bernie said it was a Republican idea / Koch brothers idea because the context in July 2015 was that it is a Boogeyman. It was created as an idea to scare politically conservative people away from the "left" / "Democrats", as a "these crazy Democrats want open borders", not that anyone ever actually proposed as much. How do I know? Because that shit came back again this summer, making the same claims that Dems want open borders, which again had to be put down. 5. The vast majority of illegal immigrant held jobs in the United States are not jobs that Americans want to do. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-us-economy-farm-workers-taxes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-us-economy-f... Maybe the Kochs are different in Texas, but most of what I've seen from them has been pretty consistent with: https://www.sanders.senate.gov/koch-brothers https://www.sanders.senate.gov/koch-brothers So yeah, hate the Kochs. Please. They are not good people. But hate them for the right reasons, not because you think they are pro illegal immigration or pro open borders (they aren't).
xg15 8y ago
I wonder if (apart from the points about workers' rights) this is also a "softer" consequence of automation: Yes, there will still be jobs, but those jobs will generally be more competitive and stressful and less straight-forward, because all "straight-forward" work can eventually be automated.

InclinedPlane 8y ago

"Typical work" is changing. It used to be possible to get ahead pretty easily. Work reasonably diligently (but not excessively so) in average income jobs and you could buy a house, accrue wealth, etc. You would have a lot more options on how you lived your life. Having a house with a paid off mortgage gives you enormous freedom, you can work for an average income that is well below what would normally be acceptable and yet still pay all of your bills (since you don't have rent). You could switch careers, become an entrepreneur, simply build your wealth, go on extended travel, indulge your hobbies, etc. Or, you could simply build a family, have the ability to spend plenty of time with them without having both parents working 40, 50, or 60 hour work weeks constantly with no time off, you could go on vacations with them, you could ensure their financial well being by being there for them when needed and helping them pay for college, their first car, their first house, etc, etc, etc. All of the typical "American dream" stuff that used to be possible in the mid-20th century. Today a lot of that is not possible. People can't afford to have children because they are crushed under debt and burdened by low wages and high costs of living. They can't afford to indulge their hobbies, travel, take vacations, switch careers, or become entrepreneurs because it would be financial suicide to do so without having some sort of benefactor already. People end up working diligently for years and decades with little to show for it. No personal wealth, no home ownership, no family, no personal freedom, no stature from career growth, etc. And it's not because the money isn't there, the economy has grown like crazy over the last 40 years, it's because the gains have been gobbled up by those who are already rich and powerful. CEO pay, corporate profits, low minimum wages, busted up unions, tax revolts. When I was a child the old saying went "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer", but it wasn't really true, the economy grew and even when the rich did get richer the poor still got richer even so. But in my lifetime that saying has become true. The rich get richer and the bottom half of the economy stagnates, and they get foreclosed on, evicted, driven out of work, made felons by the "war on drugs", etc, etc, etc, and their lives become more miserable. Our cities start acquiring barrios, slums, and shanty towns like barnacles, just like those in the 3rd world, just like those where corruption, iniquity, and injustice are the norm. Our economy creeps ever closer toward becoming a crony capitalist kleptocracy, if it isn't already. And the worst of all is that people think things aren't so bad because things aren't so bad for them yet. History is not going to look kindly on this era, nor will it draw as sharp a line between it and the more barbarous 20th century, 19th century, or even the middle ages. We have a chance to make the world a better place but only by acknowledging the problems that exist and moving forward with concerted effort.