4 ms·

> no attraction from women for men in the bottom 10%. That's what misogyny tells men.

by otikik 8y ago

shard972 8y ago
Is this what listening to men looks like? If so I can see why many men don't talk about their issues....
- zbentley 8y ago
  > Is this what listening to men looks like? Interpreting this as charitably as possible (though I suspect it might be a lost cause): yes, that is exactly what it is. GP didn't suggest that GGP was wrong, stupid, harmful, evil, or any of the above. They understood what GGP wrote, and suggested that it might be based in an opinion formed due to a skewed cultural influence, with the implication that re-examination of said opinion might be in order. That's understanding a claim, thinking about it, and issuing compassionate criticism. Whether you think it's correct or not is up to you, but it certainly isn't a failure to listen.
  - shard972 8y ago
    > That's understanding a claim, thinking about it, and issuing compassionate criticism. Whether you think it's correct or not is up to you, but it certainly isn't a failure to listen. So is it listening or criticising? I'm not even making an argument that the claims either way are wrong or right but when people say listen these days, it's usually implied that you aren't supposed to turn around and criticise them, thats at best giving constructive feedback. I'm just pointing out how men are being told to speak up, but often when they speak up they are spoken down to by the current culture for holding "wrong" views. Considering we are talking about people committing suicide it seems like this isn't exactly helping the situation.
vuhepuravi 8y ago
No, these are feelings that men actually have, without anyone telling them anything. And this is a perfect example of how people are often completely unsympathetic with men when we do complain about our problems. I'm not even close to the bottom 10% of men, and I don't feel like I get much attraction from women. It takes a lot of work and failures to even get a single date sometimes. This is a really shitty feeling and is one of the biggest causes of me feeling down. It can really make one feel like a worthless person sometimes.
- guskel 8y ago
  Men talking about their problems are seen as "whiners" and have various other insults heaped upon them. So they choose to live a life of "quiet desperation" which leads to suicide.
- otikik 8y ago
  I'm sorry you are having those problems. I was responding to someone who was blaming their problems on feminism without even bothering to google what it meant first. I have no patience for those people. > I don't feel like I get much attraction from women Well I am no expert on that myself, so I can't help you a lot there. I can tell you that the way you phrased it is worrying. Attention (any kind, not just the female one) is not something that is "owed to you". It's not a "right". There are other ways you can look at it: as mutual thing - if you want attention from women, maybe consider paying them attention first. Like, learning what their problems are, and what feminism means. Or see it as a resource, finite and limited. They can only think about so many men in a day. So it is an optimization problem. What would make you stand out? And yes, the physical thing helps in standing out, and so does being rich. Those are not the only levers available though (by all means, do some exercise. It is great for you in any case). Being empathetic helps. Being kind helps. Being assertive helps. Being socially active helps. Those things can be learned if they don't come naturally to you. Heck, just being around women more often than other guys will help (provided that you are not an asshole). Try changing one thing every 15 days, and see what sticks. The worst that can happen is that you live a better life. Don't just complain over the internet without changing anything. In case it helps: I have been married for 7 years and have a child, the "urge" to get attention from women went away in the 3rd or 4th year. I found it quite ... liberating, to be honest. I can't say whether it was due to the fact that I was married or due to reaching certain age (37-ish) though. What I crave these days is free time. Families are like gasses, they expand to occupy all space available.
  - vuhepuravi 8y ago
    He wasn't blaming his problems on feminism, he was saying he disagreed with them. I know you are trying to be helpful with your post, but I honestly found it offensive. All I said was that lack of attention from women does actually negatively affect men (contrary to what you were asserting). And from that it seems you decided I fit some selfish, misogynistic stereotype. You assume that I don't listen to women or sympathize with their feelings. You assume that I think attention is a right or something owed to me, when I never said anything even hinting at that. I didn't blame women, or imply that they are doing anything wrong. I wasn't "complaining on the internet", I was trying to inform you and others about how people actually feel because obviously even men don't all get it. And I didn't really get the point about how being married reduced your urge for attention. It's almost tautological. Once you have the attention of a woman, attention stops being a concern.

> no attraction from women for men in the bottom 10%. That's what misogyny tells men.

by otikik 8y ago

> no attraction from women for men in the bottom 10%. That's what misogyny tells men.

shard972 8y ago

Is this what listening to men looks like? If so I can see why many men don't talk about their issues....

zbentley 8y ago
> Is this what listening to men looks like? Interpreting this as charitably as possible (though I suspect it might be a lost cause): yes, that is exactly what it is. GP didn't suggest that GGP was wrong, stupid, harmful, evil, or any of the above. They understood what GGP wrote, and suggested that it might be based in an opinion formed due to a skewed cultural influence, with the implication that re-examination of said opinion might be in order. That's understanding a claim, thinking about it, and issuing compassionate criticism. Whether you think it's correct or not is up to you, but it certainly isn't a failure to listen.
- shard972 8y ago
  > That's understanding a claim, thinking about it, and issuing compassionate criticism. Whether you think it's correct or not is up to you, but it certainly isn't a failure to listen. So is it listening or criticising? I'm not even making an argument that the claims either way are wrong or right but when people say listen these days, it's usually implied that you aren't supposed to turn around and criticise them, thats at best giving constructive feedback. I'm just pointing out how men are being told to speak up, but often when they speak up they are spoken down to by the current culture for holding "wrong" views. Considering we are talking about people committing suicide it seems like this isn't exactly helping the situation.

vuhepuravi 8y ago

No, these are feelings that men actually have, without anyone telling them anything. And this is a perfect example of how people are often completely unsympathetic with men when we do complain about our problems. I'm not even close to the bottom 10% of men, and I don't feel like I get much attraction from women. It takes a lot of work and failures to even get a single date sometimes. This is a really shitty feeling and is one of the biggest causes of me feeling down. It can really make one feel like a worthless person sometimes.

guskel 8y ago
Men talking about their problems are seen as "whiners" and have various other insults heaped upon them. So they choose to live a life of "quiet desperation" which leads to suicide.
otikik 8y ago
I'm sorry you are having those problems. I was responding to someone who was blaming their problems on feminism without even bothering to google what it meant first. I have no patience for those people. > I don't feel like I get much attraction from women Well I am no expert on that myself, so I can't help you a lot there. I can tell you that the way you phrased it is worrying. Attention (any kind, not just the female one) is not something that is "owed to you". It's not a "right". There are other ways you can look at it: as mutual thing - if you want attention from women, maybe consider paying them attention first. Like, learning what their problems are, and what feminism means. Or see it as a resource, finite and limited. They can only think about so many men in a day. So it is an optimization problem. What would make you stand out? And yes, the physical thing helps in standing out, and so does being rich. Those are not the only levers available though (by all means, do some exercise. It is great for you in any case). Being empathetic helps. Being kind helps. Being assertive helps. Being socially active helps. Those things can be learned if they don't come naturally to you. Heck, just being around women more often than other guys will help (provided that you are not an asshole). Try changing one thing every 15 days, and see what sticks. The worst that can happen is that you live a better life. Don't just complain over the internet without changing anything. In case it helps: I have been married for 7 years and have a child, the "urge" to get attention from women went away in the 3rd or 4th year. I found it quite ... liberating, to be honest. I can't say whether it was due to the fact that I was married or due to reaching certain age (37-ish) though. What I crave these days is free time. Families are like gasses, they expand to occupy all space available.
- vuhepuravi 8y ago
  He wasn't blaming his problems on feminism, he was saying he disagreed with them. I know you are trying to be helpful with your post, but I honestly found it offensive. All I said was that lack of attention from women does actually negatively affect men (contrary to what you were asserting). And from that it seems you decided I fit some selfish, misogynistic stereotype. You assume that I don't listen to women or sympathize with their feelings. You assume that I think attention is a right or something owed to me, when I never said anything even hinting at that. I didn't blame women, or imply that they are doing anything wrong. I wasn't "complaining on the internet", I was trying to inform you and others about how people actually feel because obviously even men don't all get it. And I didn't really get the point about how being married reduced your urge for attention. It's almost tautological. Once you have the attention of a woman, attention stops being a concern.