6 ms·

We had "real" bread for millennia. We didn't forget about it, we actively chose something new. Humans absolutely love refined, glutiney, sweet, white flour. It'

We had "real" bread for millennia. We didn't forget about it, we actively chose something new. Humans absolutely love refined, glutiney, sweet, white flour. It's like the wheat equivalent of candy. We also love soda. It's not like we forgot about tea, people just like soda more. By the way, have you made bread with just wheat flour? It won't rise. I have to add a bunch more water too to give the dough the right consistency. Anything more than 50% wheat flour and in the oven it's just not going to get big. You could probably add vital wheat gluten, but if you have to use more than flour, salt, yeast and water, it isn't "bread" to me anymore, it's a "baked good".

bootsz 8y ago
I'm not really making a case here one way or another about what people should eat, just trying to explain the gap observed between what people think they are buying and what they are actually getting. I don't think we should call things "100% whole wheat" when it is far from that. We're just deluding people at that point. If people prefer factory "bread" that's fine but they should at least know what it actually is. > By the way, have you made bread with just wheat flour? Yes, regularly. It is more difficult to obtain a good rise and pleasant texture but it is 100% doable with proper techniques. It takes a lot of time and effort. To each his own though.
rwcarlsen 8y ago
We (my family) grind our own wheat and make real 100% wheat bread all the time. We get it to rise and be fluffy just fine FWIW. And I don't like soda or white bread nearly as much as water and wheat. Sure maybe I'm not typical, but I don't think we can attribute our culture's like of soda to more than, well, culture.
- bootsz 8y ago
  What do you use for a grinder? I’ve been itching to get into milling my own flour for a while. I hear it takes the bread to a whole new level.
  - rwcarlsen 8y ago
    Usually this: https://nutrimill.com/product/nutrimill-classic-grain-mill/ https://nutrimill.com/product/nutrimill-classic-grain-mill/ . But occasionally this when I want a workout: https://store.countrylivinggrainmills.com/grain-mill/ https://store.countrylivinggrainmills.com/grain-mill/
agsdfgsd 8y ago
>By the way, have you made bread with just wheat flour? Several times a week, every week. >It won't rise. Yes it will. >Anything more than 50% wheat flour and in the oven it's just not going to get big Use a whole wheat bread recipe, don't use a white bread recipe and just swap in whole wheat flour. >but if you have to use more than flour, salt, yeast and water, it isn't "bread" to me anymore Almost all bread has more than that. Sweetener and fat are both normal.
learc83 8y ago
Soda, sweetened bread, and very sweet food in general aren't just automatically better tasting. To an extent, it's an acquired taste. When I was a kid I drank more soda than water. I still love the taste of Coke, but now that I don't drink it often, more than a small bottle is too much. It's not just Coke either--a lot of foods that I used to love are just too sweet now that I'm not acclimated to them. It's the same for many of my friends and family who are from other cultures that don't consume quite as much sugar as we do in the US--they think everything here is too sweet.
- nicoburns 8y ago
  Indeed, US (and latin american) bread tastes weirdly sweet to my European taste buds, and not in a good way! We don't put sugar in bread here at all (except maybe very cheap bread, and of course sweet breads like brioche).
jhpriestley 8y ago
I've found Peter Reinhart's methods to produce an easy, consistent, extremely tasty and well-risen whole grain bread. It does require letting the dough soak overnight.
- bootsz 8y ago
  Soaking/extended autolyse is definitely helpful. And just using a lot more water overall. Also if you have a coarse-ground flour you can also sift out the bran, soak it separately and fold it into the dough later, which allows the gluten to develop a bit without getting cut by the bran. That’s kind of a pain though so I don’t usually do it.
stcredzero 8y ago
We had "real" bread for millennia. We didn't forget about it, we actively chose something new. Kinda. Witness the reaction of people who've eaten nothing but grocery store white bread to a nice piece of artisan bread. Also, Paul Newman used to quip, "Why go out for hamburger, when you have steak at home?" The answer to that, is that it's far easier to package, prepare, and distribute the hamburger. We also love soda. It's not like we forgot about tea, people just like soda more. The same goes for soda. Also, to bring it back around to Paul Newman, I also chased around some women who were clearly bad for me in retrospect. What people want is different in different contexts, over different timescales, at different ages. What you really want might be a little different than what you'd choose when just being your "id." (Cookie Monster is just the id personified. I think of Cookie Monster, Ernie, and Bert as id, ego, and superego.)
Angostura 8y ago
Interestingly though, I remember a big cultural change in the UK back in the 1970s. The bread industry then was dominated by few manufacturers and their sliced white bread. For some reason, a wave of strikes hit these manufacturers very badly; I remember there being queues to buy bread. One of the side effects was that people found that the sliced white was sold out and there was only this weird "granary" wholemeal stuff left on the shelves. Granary became a lot more popular, and its popularity held up after the strikes ended. It ushered in an early interest in different kinds of seedy bread.

bootsz 8y ago

I'm not really making a case here one way or another about what people should eat, just trying to explain the gap observed between what people think they are buying and what they are actually getting. I don't think we should call things "100% whole wheat" when it is far from that. We're just deluding people at that point. If people prefer factory "bread" that's fine but they should at least know what it actually is. > By the way, have you made bread with just wheat flour? Yes, regularly. It is more difficult to obtain a good rise and pleasant texture but it is 100% doable with proper techniques. It takes a lot of time and effort. To each his own though.

rwcarlsen 8y ago

We (my family) grind our own wheat and make real 100% wheat bread all the time. We get it to rise and be fluffy just fine FWIW. And I don't like soda or white bread nearly as much as water and wheat. Sure maybe I'm not typical, but I don't think we can attribute our culture's like of soda to more than, well, culture.

bootsz 8y ago
What do you use for a grinder? I’ve been itching to get into milling my own flour for a while. I hear it takes the bread to a whole new level.
- rwcarlsen 8y ago
  Usually this: https://nutrimill.com/product/nutrimill-classic-grain-mill/ https://nutrimill.com/product/nutrimill-classic-grain-mill/ . But occasionally this when I want a workout: https://store.countrylivinggrainmills.com/grain-mill/ https://store.countrylivinggrainmills.com/grain-mill/

agsdfgsd 8y ago

>By the way, have you made bread with just wheat flour? Several times a week, every week. >It won't rise. Yes it will. >Anything more than 50% wheat flour and in the oven it's just not going to get big Use a whole wheat bread recipe, don't use a white bread recipe and just swap in whole wheat flour. >but if you have to use more than flour, salt, yeast and water, it isn't "bread" to me anymore Almost all bread has more than that. Sweetener and fat are both normal.

learc83 8y ago

Soda, sweetened bread, and very sweet food in general aren't just automatically better tasting. To an extent, it's an acquired taste. When I was a kid I drank more soda than water. I still love the taste of Coke, but now that I don't drink it often, more than a small bottle is too much. It's not just Coke either--a lot of foods that I used to love are just too sweet now that I'm not acclimated to them. It's the same for many of my friends and family who are from other cultures that don't consume quite as much sugar as we do in the US--they think everything here is too sweet.

nicoburns 8y ago
Indeed, US (and latin american) bread tastes weirdly sweet to my European taste buds, and not in a good way! We don't put sugar in bread here at all (except maybe very cheap bread, and of course sweet breads like brioche).

jhpriestley 8y ago

I've found Peter Reinhart's methods to produce an easy, consistent, extremely tasty and well-risen whole grain bread. It does require letting the dough soak overnight.

bootsz 8y ago
Soaking/extended autolyse is definitely helpful. And just using a lot more water overall. Also if you have a coarse-ground flour you can also sift out the bran, soak it separately and fold it into the dough later, which allows the gluten to develop a bit without getting cut by the bran. That’s kind of a pain though so I don’t usually do it.

stcredzero 8y ago

We had "real" bread for millennia. We didn't forget about it, we actively chose something new. Kinda. Witness the reaction of people who've eaten nothing but grocery store white bread to a nice piece of artisan bread. Also, Paul Newman used to quip, "Why go out for hamburger, when you have steak at home?" The answer to that, is that it's far easier to package, prepare, and distribute the hamburger. We also love soda. It's not like we forgot about tea, people just like soda more. The same goes for soda. Also, to bring it back around to Paul Newman, I also chased around some women who were clearly bad for me in retrospect. What people want is different in different contexts, over different timescales, at different ages. What you really want might be a little different than what you'd choose when just being your "id." (Cookie Monster is just the id personified. I think of Cookie Monster, Ernie, and Bert as id, ego, and superego.)

Angostura 8y ago

Interestingly though, I remember a big cultural change in the UK back in the 1970s. The bread industry then was dominated by few manufacturers and their sliced white bread. For some reason, a wave of strikes hit these manufacturers very badly; I remember there being queues to buy bread. One of the side effects was that people found that the sliced white was sold out and there was only this weird "granary" wholemeal stuff left on the shelves. Granary became a lot more popular, and its popularity held up after the strikes ended. It ushered in an early interest in different kinds of seedy bread.