4 ms·

> The companies in my network (anecdotal evidence) are full with international people. In our office we have nationals from 13 countries. This is the most diver

> The companies in my network (anecdotal evidence) are full with international people. In our office we have nationals from 13 countries. This is the most diverse environment that I have ever seen (including San Francisco) I'll probably get downvoted for saying this, but it's important enough that I need to: country of origin is a completely meaningless way to measure diversity. Especially in Europe, where most countries are comparable to the size of individual states in the US and are relatively racially homogeneous, national origin doesn't measure anything meaningful. The problem with Munich is that, like Bavaria as a whole[0], it is incredibly racist. Specifically, if you look Muslim, Arab, or Middle Eastern, you're in for a really rough time. This shouldn't be too surprising if you look at recent trends in German politics, and specifically in Bavarian politics. I wouldn't hold Berlin up as a gold standard here by any means, but it's far better than either Frankfurt or Munich in this regard. [0] less so than the rest of Bavaria, but more so than any other comparable city in Germany

poulsbohemian 8y ago
>Especially in Europe, where most countries are comparable to the size of individual states in the US I understand what you are saying, but having travelled around the US, mostly for business but some for pleasure, there are remarkable and under-appreciated differences among the states. I would go so far as to say that my state, Washington, and its neighboring Canadian province of British Columbia, have more in common culturally, socially, and economically than say, Washington state and Florida. Within Germany itself, which is approximately the size of Oregon, I found that there are also significant religious, cultural, and linguistic differences even still today. So I'm not sure that we can easily discard the differences that come from borders or geography, even within a small area. Silly case in point - it's been a few years, but you go to Frankfurt and ask for an alt beer, you get served. You ask for an alt beer in Munich, you get funny looks.
- baxtr 8y ago
  People will hate you if you ask for an Alt Bier in Munich... Seriously, though. I think you make a very strong point, which I’d like to call “resolution effect”. If you look at that something like the US from far away things look petty similar. However, once you zoom in patches appear and suddenly homogenity is replaced by heterogeneity. People tend to forget that easily. Conversely, I never felt more European than during my two years in the States
- chimeracoder 8y ago
  > Silly case in point - it's been a few years, but you go to Frankfurt and ask for an alt beer, you get served. You ask for an alt beer in Munich, you get funny looks. If this is what you think is remotely relevant in a conversation about a "diverse environment", I'm not sure what more can be said.
  - poulsbohemian 8y ago
    My point was that diversity is more than race - it can be language, religion, politics, gender, and yes even cuisine. Case in point the old joke about the biggest divide between Israelis and Palestinians being the way they pronounce “hummus.”
    - chimeracoder 8y ago
      > Case in point the old joke about the biggest divide between Israelis and Palestinians being the way they pronounce “hummus.” Yeah, so... that's a really offensive thing to say. I know you don't live there, but if you're trying to prove that Munich is both ethnically diverse and not a place where Arab and Muslim people experience significant racism (which are two separate points), you really could not be hurting your own case any more.
      - poulsbohemian 8y ago
        Look, my own experiences are that Bavaria is like the American South - politically conservative, racist, xenophobic. Even as a white, straight, German-speaking male I have had some scary experiences there. By your commentary, I gather perhaps you have perhaps been a target of racism, which is of course incredibly disappointing. The rise of right-wing, xenophobic groups with the obvious history of 20th century Germany is shocking. That said, none of my previous comments above were commentary on Munich. If you'd read carefully, my original statement was that there can be remarkable diversity even in a small geographic area, where I attempted to give examples of diversity than extend beyond race. The world is a richer place when we have a mix of gender, religion, language, culture, politics, and thought, and yes too, the wonderful spectrum of skin tones, eye color, hair, etc. I also pointed out that lumping the United States together is a common fallacy. Case in point - you live in New York, I live on the West coast, and these two areas have very different cultural practices in the large, before we start talking about sub-cultures. I'd tell a great joke about the difference between the west coast and east coast, but you'd likely find reason to take offense at it as well, which ironically is the gist of the joke. My quote about hummus came from a documentary on the history of the middle east conflict, where I have also heard similar statements made by Israelis I have known personally. One of the wonderful things about diversity is that for open minded people, we can seek areas of common ground in our diversity, and frankly food has been a way to break down barriers between people, for like, centuries perhaps millennia. So hey, you want to take offense because you like being offended, enjoy.
woodpanel 8y ago
> Bavaria as a whole, it is incredibly racist Do you mind stating some sources for that (and no, the conservative party ruling there for the last 70 years doesn't count)?
- shemtovo 8y ago
  Personal experiences. Trust this middle eastern right here.
  - StreamBright 8y ago
    Great anecdotal experience. Now have a look at the wikipedia facts: In July 2017, Munich had 1.42 million inhabitants; 421,832 foreign nationals resided in the city as of 31.12.2017 with 50.7% of these residents being citizens of EU member states, and 25.2% citizens in European states not in the EU (including Russia and Turkey).[16] The largest groups of foreign nationals were Turks (39,204), Croats (33,177), Italians (27,340), Greeks (27,117), Poles (27,945), Austrians (21,944), and Romanians (18,085). The largest foreign resident groups by 31.12.2017[17] Turkey 37,998 Croatia 36,655 Italy 27,060 Greece 26,360 Austria 20,990 Poland 19,456 Bosnia and Herzegovina 18,987 Romania 17,415 Serbia 13,758 Iraq 12,124 Bulgaria 12,035 Kosovo 11,114 France 9,983 Hungary 8,621 Spain 8,614 Russia 8,603 China 7,624 India 7,440 Afghanistan 7,234 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich#Demographics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich#Demographics
    - chimeracoder 8y ago
      I'm not sure what you think you're trying to prove with those numbers. Aside from the fact that nationality and race are not the same thing and cannot be conflated in this context, those numbers don't mean anything. 40% of people from Mississippi are black. That doesn't mean that they don't face serious racism in Mississippi, from everyday life to their own elected officials.
      - StreamBright 8y ago
        The amount of immigrants in any environment is a great indication if people are racist or not. Blacks are not immigrants in Mississippi, they did not need to make a decision to move to a new country. If Bavarians are so racist how come we have so many immigrants in Munich?
StreamBright 8y ago
Totally, people from Romania are the same that people from Netherlands. Only minor differences like history, culture, language, life expectancy, religion, etc. are different. :) Btw. I did not say that all 13 nationals are from Europe, in fact they are from: India, Pakistan, Algeria, South Africa, Australia and United States. They did not have a rough time to come to Munich and they love it here, have kids, speak German and integrated into the society more than I am (I am from Europe). I am not sure how they managed to dodge the racist Bavarians.

poulsbohemian 8y ago

>Especially in Europe, where most countries are comparable to the size of individual states in the US I understand what you are saying, but having travelled around the US, mostly for business but some for pleasure, there are remarkable and under-appreciated differences among the states. I would go so far as to say that my state, Washington, and its neighboring Canadian province of British Columbia, have more in common culturally, socially, and economically than say, Washington state and Florida. Within Germany itself, which is approximately the size of Oregon, I found that there are also significant religious, cultural, and linguistic differences even still today. So I'm not sure that we can easily discard the differences that come from borders or geography, even within a small area. Silly case in point - it's been a few years, but you go to Frankfurt and ask for an alt beer, you get served. You ask for an alt beer in Munich, you get funny looks.

baxtr 8y ago
People will hate you if you ask for an Alt Bier in Munich... Seriously, though. I think you make a very strong point, which I’d like to call “resolution effect”. If you look at that something like the US from far away things look petty similar. However, once you zoom in patches appear and suddenly homogenity is replaced by heterogeneity. People tend to forget that easily. Conversely, I never felt more European than during my two years in the States
chimeracoder 8y ago
> Silly case in point - it's been a few years, but you go to Frankfurt and ask for an alt beer, you get served. You ask for an alt beer in Munich, you get funny looks. If this is what you think is remotely relevant in a conversation about a "diverse environment", I'm not sure what more can be said.
- poulsbohemian 8y ago
  My point was that diversity is more than race - it can be language, religion, politics, gender, and yes even cuisine. Case in point the old joke about the biggest divide between Israelis and Palestinians being the way they pronounce “hummus.”
  - chimeracoder 8y ago
    > Case in point the old joke about the biggest divide between Israelis and Palestinians being the way they pronounce “hummus.” Yeah, so... that's a really offensive thing to say. I know you don't live there, but if you're trying to prove that Munich is both ethnically diverse and not a place where Arab and Muslim people experience significant racism (which are two separate points), you really could not be hurting your own case any more.
    - poulsbohemian 8y ago
      Look, my own experiences are that Bavaria is like the American South - politically conservative, racist, xenophobic. Even as a white, straight, German-speaking male I have had some scary experiences there. By your commentary, I gather perhaps you have perhaps been a target of racism, which is of course incredibly disappointing. The rise of right-wing, xenophobic groups with the obvious history of 20th century Germany is shocking. That said, none of my previous comments above were commentary on Munich. If you'd read carefully, my original statement was that there can be remarkable diversity even in a small geographic area, where I attempted to give examples of diversity than extend beyond race. The world is a richer place when we have a mix of gender, religion, language, culture, politics, and thought, and yes too, the wonderful spectrum of skin tones, eye color, hair, etc. I also pointed out that lumping the United States together is a common fallacy. Case in point - you live in New York, I live on the West coast, and these two areas have very different cultural practices in the large, before we start talking about sub-cultures. I'd tell a great joke about the difference between the west coast and east coast, but you'd likely find reason to take offense at it as well, which ironically is the gist of the joke. My quote about hummus came from a documentary on the history of the middle east conflict, where I have also heard similar statements made by Israelis I have known personally. One of the wonderful things about diversity is that for open minded people, we can seek areas of common ground in our diversity, and frankly food has been a way to break down barriers between people, for like, centuries perhaps millennia. So hey, you want to take offense because you like being offended, enjoy.

woodpanel 8y ago

> Bavaria as a whole, it is incredibly racist Do you mind stating some sources for that (and no, the conservative party ruling there for the last 70 years doesn't count)?

shemtovo 8y ago
Personal experiences. Trust this middle eastern right here.
- StreamBright 8y ago
  Great anecdotal experience. Now have a look at the wikipedia facts: In July 2017, Munich had 1.42 million inhabitants; 421,832 foreign nationals resided in the city as of 31.12.2017 with 50.7% of these residents being citizens of EU member states, and 25.2% citizens in European states not in the EU (including Russia and Turkey).[16] The largest groups of foreign nationals were Turks (39,204), Croats (33,177), Italians (27,340), Greeks (27,117), Poles (27,945), Austrians (21,944), and Romanians (18,085). The largest foreign resident groups by 31.12.2017[17] Turkey 37,998 Croatia 36,655 Italy 27,060 Greece 26,360 Austria 20,990 Poland 19,456 Bosnia and Herzegovina 18,987 Romania 17,415 Serbia 13,758 Iraq 12,124 Bulgaria 12,035 Kosovo 11,114 France 9,983 Hungary 8,621 Spain 8,614 Russia 8,603 China 7,624 India 7,440 Afghanistan 7,234 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich#Demographics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich#Demographics
  - chimeracoder 8y ago
    I'm not sure what you think you're trying to prove with those numbers. Aside from the fact that nationality and race are not the same thing and cannot be conflated in this context, those numbers don't mean anything. 40% of people from Mississippi are black. That doesn't mean that they don't face serious racism in Mississippi, from everyday life to their own elected officials.
    - StreamBright 8y ago
      The amount of immigrants in any environment is a great indication if people are racist or not. Blacks are not immigrants in Mississippi, they did not need to make a decision to move to a new country. If Bavarians are so racist how come we have so many immigrants in Munich?

StreamBright 8y ago

Totally, people from Romania are the same that people from Netherlands. Only minor differences like history, culture, language, life expectancy, religion, etc. are different. :) Btw. I did not say that all 13 nationals are from Europe, in fact they are from: India, Pakistan, Algeria, South Africa, Australia and United States. They did not have a rough time to come to Munich and they love it here, have kids, speak German and integrated into the society more than I am (I am from Europe). I am not sure how they managed to dodge the racist Bavarians.