8 ms·

Yesterday we found out we're not having sex. Today we find out suicide is increasing. I wonder if the two are linked.

by rhacker 8y ago

dv_dt 8y ago
Yes, they're both driven by economic inequality and a nation built for profits over people.
- patrickaljord 8y ago
  Suicide rate is much higher in more socialist countries: http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/suicide-rate-by-country/ http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/suicide-rate-by-c... This includes France, Finland and Sweden is just right next to the US with much lower inequalities.
  - tim333 8y ago
    Your linked list has socialist Venezuela at #148 with 3.7 suicides /100k and now capitalist Lithuania at #1 with 31.9 /100k so the link seems unproven.
  - DanBC 8y ago
    It's very difficult to compare suicide rates across countries. This is because they use different definitions. Your link doesn't say where they're getting their data and how they've fixed this problem.
  - dv_dt 8y ago
    There are multiple factors correlated with sucicide, but notable is that the US rate has increased 30% during a time of decrease in suicide rate of other nations: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2018-07-02/why-are-suicide-rates-rising-in-the-us-while-falling-in-most-of-europe https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2018-07-... This one lists Belgium, Finland, France as higher rates than the US. But other research also notes differences in rates of various races, I guess whites commit suicide at a observerably higher rate too.
    - patrickaljord 8y ago
      This link of yours links suicide rate to social welfare spending, this is unlikely given that France, Finland and Belgium and specially Japan offer free healthcare and have much higher suicide rates. In fact, if you take out suicide by gun in the US, you get much lower suicide rates and it is a fact that guns make suicide easier and more likely.
      - dv_dt 8y ago
        The article hypothesizes suicide increases because of reduction in social welfare spending as well as social support. And notes some correlations, and calls for deeper study. Suicide by guns don't count because?
        patrickaljord 8y ago
        Suicide by guns counts, it just diminishes even more the inequality cause because if you take out suicide by guns then suicide rates are even much lower than in these other countries with less inequalities and free healthcare but no suicide by guns.
        dv_dt 8y ago
        I think that's a huge unknown assumption that if there were no gun, the victim would simply not commit suicide. There might be some dissuasion, but we have no way to gauge it - and pegging it at everyone in that group would be saved if only we took away guns seems like an assumption at one extreme end.
      - sam0x17 8y ago
        Not to complicate things more, but social welfare spending != efficient social welfare spending, leading to more potentially contrary (in both directions) trends.
      - diogenescynic 8y ago
        It’s almost like there could be multiple contributing factors and there’s not a simple explanation.
  - jahaja 8y ago
    How much is hidden by the US drug epidemic?
    - diogenescynic 8y ago
      Agree, while not exactly the same I’d add up overdoses and compare both groups.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
phkahler 8y ago
I wonder if anyone knows how many opioid deaths are deliberate. The suicide rate could actually be much higher if this turns out to be a thing and is not included in the stats.
tsumnia 8y ago
My biggest concern is are we following a similar trend to Japan (low sex rate, high suicide)? While I am no means an expert, the overall theme that I've seen describe the phenomena in Japan is that they have just "stopped caring" about all the social pressures. I wonder if Western culture is starting to have the same effect where the "rules of society" are just becoming so convoluted that people are "opting out". I'm looking at this more from the birth rate speculation, but not having a family to go home to at night and stressful work environments may have a connection.
- watwut 8y ago
  > I'm looking at this more from the birth rate speculation, but not having a family to go home to at night and stressful work environments may have a connection. There is. Having high stress competitive work prevents you to go to familly (because you are working overtime) and makes you loose it (whether formally or you just looses relationship). Conversely, having familly often prevents ones career and limits job opportunities. But, I don't think western rules are convoluted. It is more that economy sux and tends to be winner takes all.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
Probably, and I can make an educated guess how: modern society eschews the value of human relationships in favor of status and wealth seeking. People find they are not happy, so they search for a path to happiness and our culture tells them that it is through being wealthy, famous, and successful. They search for a path to those things and find that it often involves long hours, greed, and psychopathic behavior. Human relationships are a risk, and risks are to be minimized. They put this knowledge into practice and find that it doesn't work. My own theory of how depression works is that it involves an inescapable realization that your model of reality is broken and can't be used to make predictions that allow you to effect the change you want to see in your life. You wanted to be happy, society gave you a bad model to work from, and the mind's reaction to discovering that this model doesn't work is depression.
- plainOldText 8y ago
  A very insightful comment. I have no idea to what extent your hypotheses describe reality, but the elegance of your line of reasoning deems this path worthy of further investigation.
- rv-de 8y ago
  Where does the sex come in?
  - prawn 8y ago
    Part of (some) human relationships. Being ignored at the expense of working towards success or building a brand towards status.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
      It's worse than that, it's active avoidance of human relationships because they're a liability. Not just because they create dependencies but because in order to form connections we need to make ourselves vulnerable.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
monksy 8y ago
I would imagine that it gets excerbated when people can't afford to have kids and are required to get a double income just to survive.
draw_down 8y ago
Immiserated people tend to have less sex and kill themselves more, so, sure.

Yesterday we found out we're not having sex. Today we find out suicide is increasing. I wonder if the two are linked.

dv_dt 8y ago

Yes, they're both driven by economic inequality and a nation built for profits over people.

patrickaljord 8y ago
Suicide rate is much higher in more socialist countries: http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/suicide-rate-by-country/ http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/suicide-rate-by-c... This includes France, Finland and Sweden is just right next to the US with much lower inequalities.
- tim333 8y ago
  Your linked list has socialist Venezuela at #148 with 3.7 suicides /100k and now capitalist Lithuania at #1 with 31.9 /100k so the link seems unproven.
- DanBC 8y ago
  It's very difficult to compare suicide rates across countries. This is because they use different definitions. Your link doesn't say where they're getting their data and how they've fixed this problem.
- dv_dt 8y ago
  There are multiple factors correlated with sucicide, but notable is that the US rate has increased 30% during a time of decrease in suicide rate of other nations: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2018-07-02/why-are-suicide-rates-rising-in-the-us-while-falling-in-most-of-europe https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2018-07-... This one lists Belgium, Finland, France as higher rates than the US. But other research also notes differences in rates of various races, I guess whites commit suicide at a observerably higher rate too.
  - patrickaljord 8y ago
    This link of yours links suicide rate to social welfare spending, this is unlikely given that France, Finland and Belgium and specially Japan offer free healthcare and have much higher suicide rates. In fact, if you take out suicide by gun in the US, you get much lower suicide rates and it is a fact that guns make suicide easier and more likely.
    - dv_dt 8y ago
      The article hypothesizes suicide increases because of reduction in social welfare spending as well as social support. And notes some correlations, and calls for deeper study. Suicide by guns don't count because?
      - patrickaljord 8y ago
        Suicide by guns counts, it just diminishes even more the inequality cause because if you take out suicide by guns then suicide rates are even much lower than in these other countries with less inequalities and free healthcare but no suicide by guns.
        dv_dt 8y ago
        I think that's a huge unknown assumption that if there were no gun, the victim would simply not commit suicide. There might be some dissuasion, but we have no way to gauge it - and pegging it at everyone in that group would be saved if only we took away guns seems like an assumption at one extreme end.
    - sam0x17 8y ago
      Not to complicate things more, but social welfare spending != efficient social welfare spending, leading to more potentially contrary (in both directions) trends.
    - diogenescynic 8y ago
      It’s almost like there could be multiple contributing factors and there’s not a simple explanation.
- jahaja 8y ago
  How much is hidden by the US drug epidemic?
  - diogenescynic 8y ago
    Agree, while not exactly the same I’d add up overdoses and compare both groups.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

phkahler 8y ago

I wonder if anyone knows how many opioid deaths are deliberate. The suicide rate could actually be much higher if this turns out to be a thing and is not included in the stats.

tsumnia 8y ago

My biggest concern is are we following a similar trend to Japan (low sex rate, high suicide)? While I am no means an expert, the overall theme that I've seen describe the phenomena in Japan is that they have just "stopped caring" about all the social pressures. I wonder if Western culture is starting to have the same effect where the "rules of society" are just becoming so convoluted that people are "opting out". I'm looking at this more from the birth rate speculation, but not having a family to go home to at night and stressful work environments may have a connection.

watwut 8y ago
> I'm looking at this more from the birth rate speculation, but not having a family to go home to at night and stressful work environments may have a connection. There is. Having high stress competitive work prevents you to go to familly (because you are working overtime) and makes you loose it (whether formally or you just looses relationship). Conversely, having familly often prevents ones career and limits job opportunities. But, I don't think western rules are convoluted. It is more that economy sux and tends to be winner takes all.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago

Probably, and I can make an educated guess how: modern society eschews the value of human relationships in favor of status and wealth seeking. People find they are not happy, so they search for a path to happiness and our culture tells them that it is through being wealthy, famous, and successful. They search for a path to those things and find that it often involves long hours, greed, and psychopathic behavior. Human relationships are a risk, and risks are to be minimized. They put this knowledge into practice and find that it doesn't work. My own theory of how depression works is that it involves an inescapable realization that your model of reality is broken and can't be used to make predictions that allow you to effect the change you want to see in your life. You wanted to be happy, society gave you a bad model to work from, and the mind's reaction to discovering that this model doesn't work is depression.

plainOldText 8y ago
A very insightful comment. I have no idea to what extent your hypotheses describe reality, but the elegance of your line of reasoning deems this path worthy of further investigation.
rv-de 8y ago
Where does the sex come in?
- prawn 8y ago
  Part of (some) human relationships. Being ignored at the expense of working towards success or building a brand towards status.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    It's worse than that, it's active avoidance of human relationships because they're a liability. Not just because they create dependencies but because in order to form connections we need to make ourselves vulnerable.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago

monksy 8y ago

I would imagine that it gets excerbated when people can't afford to have kids and are required to get a double income just to survive.

draw_down 8y ago

Immiserated people tend to have less sex and kill themselves more, so, sure.