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Although there are many in my circle of friends that are apathetic to sports, I can't help but be drawn into the idea of "superhuman" feats and statistical outl

Although there are many in my circle of friends that are apathetic to sports, I can't help but be drawn into the idea of "superhuman" feats and statistical outliers that always seem to permeate major sports. We live in an era where being a 40 year old quarterback is not only possible but can play at top 1%. An era where an NBA player who entered after highschool has played for more than 15 years and has not had a major injury despite playing nonstop and has single highhandedly put a no name basketball team on the map. An era where not one but two of the greatest soccer players have played and peaked at the same time. And all this is happening as teams hire more Post Docs in Stats and Math to find the secret sauce that makes teams great or find ways to break the game in their favor. If you like Wayne Gretzky I suggest you look up interviews regarding the work ethic and impressive mental skills of other top players like Kobe Bryant and Cristiano Ronaldo, these guys are geniuses in their field but are absolute work horses with incredible discipline.

donclark 8y ago
I like to play sports (participate). I dont care to watch them - unless its my kids. For me, I think of great sports people like other top tier predators on the planet. Sure, they can be exciting to watch, but its just entertainment no? Do I (or we as humans) stand to learn something important from them?
- gringoDan 8y ago
  I think there's something that can be learned from witnessing excellence in any area - writing, coding, music, sports...seeing the processes, discipline, out-of-the-box thinking, teamwork, etc. that lead to a great outcome can transfer over into other fields. Yes, sports are mainly for entertainment (and a series of never-ending cliches) but are also a microcosm of life. That being said, I agree that you'll learn much more from reading books, taking a course, etc. than sitting down and watching sports for the equivalent amount of time.
  - wesd 8y ago
    I coach soccer for my kids. The primary obstacle to players development is that they've never watched a game therefore you have to teach them everything.
  - thatcat 8y ago
    >you learn more about sports from reading than watching I'm not sure that's true, game tapes - if strategically cut together - can be very effective in teaching strategy and individual techniques for sports. Video games can also be very effective in this regard. This works because it activates mirror neurons when you imagine you're doing the thing you're watching.
    - gringoDan 8y ago
      To clarify, I meant you'd learn more (in a general sense) from activities other than watching sports. If you're looking to build expertise in a given sport, I agree that watching it is probably one of the best ways to do so.
- skh 8y ago
  Didn’t bliblah’s last paragraph address this? Also, so what if it is just entertainment. It’s still fascinating to some people how much of an outlier among outliers these people are. I did mixed martial arts for 10 years and sparred with someone who eventually went on to be a semi finalist on The Ultimate Fighter. He easily destroyed me and he couldn’t make it in the UFC. How much more of an outlier is Khabib or Mcgregor? I did Ph.D. studies in mathematics at a group 1 reasearch imstituion. Went to a talk by a graduate student from Berkeley in the same area as me and in school for the same length of time as me. It was clear I would never know as much as him or be as good as him. I quit my Ph.D. program shortly afterwards. I knew I wasn’t good enough to do worthwhile research in math. Outliers among outliers.
- gamblor956 8y ago
  Their exercise, nutrition, recovery, and rehabilitation regimes are valuable information for the rest of us. Michael Phelps' affinity for fast food aside, professional athletes tend to adopt newer technologies and fitness modalities years befoe they become mainstream.
  - pmart123 8y ago
    This is a good point. When I grew up in Chicago during the Bulls dynasty era, Michael Jordan’s trainer Tim Grover wrote a book on explosiveness training mainly through body weight type exercises and flexibility versus heavy weights, now which is finally in vogue 20 years later. Meanwhile, Phil Jackson was very into mediation, which was adopted years later by Google with mindfulness training, and now mindfulness studios are popping up everywhere. Today, information is more accessible, but it’s still probably better to learn what Federer or Lebron does versus what your local trainer is recommending.
- javajosh 8y ago
  Athletes are performing difficult, demanding physical and mental tasks, in a team environment, and without a "safety net". Programmers are not performers, and we have a huge set of safety nets, but we can still learn focus, how to stay cool under pressure, and how to reach 'flow' from athletes. Exercises like Yoga and Tai Chi stress the mind body connection more explicitly than the NFL, but it's there in every sport.
- coleifer 8y ago
  Well, games and play have been a part of the human condition for thousands of years. It's not rational, but its definitely human. Instead of thinking "what can I get?" just revel in the players own sense of joy and mastery.
parthdesai 8y ago
Speaking of Ronaldo, if anyone hasn't seen this documentary, they definitely should. It show's his insane athleticism and reflexes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWR_ku1AAtM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWR_ku1AAtM
- ericol 8y ago
  And yet there's Messi https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossi...
  - gilbetron 8y ago
    Ronaldo is peak human, Messi is supernatural.
  - pmart123 8y ago
    I really liked this Messi article: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/messi-walks-better-than-most-players-run/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/messi-walks-better-than... To me, it really exemplifies that often it is better to slowly move into the right area, and save your resources for when it’s optimal to move quickly with a burst. I think a good analogy to this is when Warren Buffett talks about investing, he often talks about waiting for the right pitch. Often, the preparation might seem like no action or result in to action to the outside world, but enable you to be ready when the right situation arises.
    - parthdesai 8y ago
      That only works if you are Messi. If entire tea starts to take that approach, you are gonna have big problems.
rhcom2 8y ago
Jaromir Jagr is 46 and still playing professional hockey (not in the NHL anymore though). He was famous for staying at the practice rink until everyone else left.
- pdwetz 8y ago
  How much of that is luck/genetics? As a Mets fan, David Wright is an easy counter example of someone who was known to work hard and then struggled with injuries.
headsupftw 8y ago
Add men's tennis to that list. As we speak it's being dominated by three players who are over 30 (Djokovic 31, Nadal 32, Federer 37!!!). We are not saying they are still competitive but rather they are absolutely crushing everybody else including the youngin's. Even more phenomenal is that all three of them are candidates for THE GREATEST male athlete who has ever graced tennis fields. This was simply unimaginable even a couple years back when for decades ATP tennis had been considered a 20-something year olds' game.
- bliblah 8y ago
  Ah you are absolutely right! I recently read this article and it blew my mind to imagine that there are is such a concentration of talent in the older players. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/there-are-officially-zero-mens-grand-slam-winners-in-their-20s/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/there-are-officially-ze...
irrational 8y ago
Who are the two soccer players?
- mhh__ 8y ago
  Messi and (Cristiano) Ronaldo
thanosnose 8y ago
> I can't help but be drawn into the idea of "superhuman" feats and statistical outliers that always seem to permeate major sports. Because sports is just as much entertainment as it is sports. These leagues need someone to be the face of their product in order to draw crowds and make money. Jordan and the bulls were such a product of the 90s to save the NBA from the end of the lakers-celtics dominated 80s. Gretkzy, like montana, was part of a super team through with the NHL and NFL built their brands and generated interest in the 80s. Brady and a bunch of QBs were beneficiaries of the NFL's move toward more passing and increased scoring to generate interest. The NFL found out that most fans love passing and scoring while the few purists loved defense and the running game. So they changed the rules to handicap defenses, especially against the pass. Now every year, we get superhuman passing records being set. Look at the curry, durant and the golden state warriors today. Beneficiaries of NBA's move to handicap defenses and allow more scoring - which is what NBA fans, especially fans overseas ( particularly china ) like. The days of the dominant center in the NBA or the running back in NFL is over, until the climate shifts and the they need to rebrand the product. All these "superhuman" statistics are a result of "sports" + "entertainment". It's partly earned through athletic prowess and it's also manufactured by rules changes, refs "managing" the game, etc. Was gretzky that much better than messier ( his teammate ) or lemieux as the stats seem to imply? Absolutely not. Was jordan that much better than pippen ( his teammate ) or dominique wilkins as the stats seem to imply? Absolutely not. But someone has to be the face of the product the leagues are selling. And the NHL before gretzky and the NBA before jordan was facing problems which was magically solved by gretzky and jordan.
- alexpetralia 8y ago
  This is a fascinating and insightful analysis.
- hedvig 8y ago
  What NFL rule changes handicapped defenses, just curious?
  - thanosnose 8y ago
    There are a bunch of rules - mostly protecting QBs from high and low hits and protecting receivers from contact and vicious hits. http://www.realclearlife.com/sports/nfl-rule-changes-created-golden-era-quarterback-stats/ http://www.realclearlife.com/sports/nfl-rule-changes-created... https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/cam-newton-tom-brady-show-nfl-passing-game-explosion-thanks-to-rule-changes-coaching-athletes-091611 https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/cam-newton-tom-brady-sho...

donclark 8y ago

I like to play sports (participate). I dont care to watch them - unless its my kids. For me, I think of great sports people like other top tier predators on the planet. Sure, they can be exciting to watch, but its just entertainment no? Do I (or we as humans) stand to learn something important from them?

gringoDan 8y ago
I think there's something that can be learned from witnessing excellence in any area - writing, coding, music, sports...seeing the processes, discipline, out-of-the-box thinking, teamwork, etc. that lead to a great outcome can transfer over into other fields. Yes, sports are mainly for entertainment (and a series of never-ending cliches) but are also a microcosm of life. That being said, I agree that you'll learn much more from reading books, taking a course, etc. than sitting down and watching sports for the equivalent amount of time.
- wesd 8y ago
  I coach soccer for my kids. The primary obstacle to players development is that they've never watched a game therefore you have to teach them everything.
- thatcat 8y ago
  >you learn more about sports from reading than watching I'm not sure that's true, game tapes - if strategically cut together - can be very effective in teaching strategy and individual techniques for sports. Video games can also be very effective in this regard. This works because it activates mirror neurons when you imagine you're doing the thing you're watching.
  - gringoDan 8y ago
    To clarify, I meant you'd learn more (in a general sense) from activities other than watching sports. If you're looking to build expertise in a given sport, I agree that watching it is probably one of the best ways to do so.
skh 8y ago
Didn’t bliblah’s last paragraph address this? Also, so what if it is just entertainment. It’s still fascinating to some people how much of an outlier among outliers these people are. I did mixed martial arts for 10 years and sparred with someone who eventually went on to be a semi finalist on The Ultimate Fighter. He easily destroyed me and he couldn’t make it in the UFC. How much more of an outlier is Khabib or Mcgregor? I did Ph.D. studies in mathematics at a group 1 reasearch imstituion. Went to a talk by a graduate student from Berkeley in the same area as me and in school for the same length of time as me. It was clear I would never know as much as him or be as good as him. I quit my Ph.D. program shortly afterwards. I knew I wasn’t good enough to do worthwhile research in math. Outliers among outliers.
gamblor956 8y ago
Their exercise, nutrition, recovery, and rehabilitation regimes are valuable information for the rest of us. Michael Phelps' affinity for fast food aside, professional athletes tend to adopt newer technologies and fitness modalities years befoe they become mainstream.
- pmart123 8y ago
  This is a good point. When I grew up in Chicago during the Bulls dynasty era, Michael Jordan’s trainer Tim Grover wrote a book on explosiveness training mainly through body weight type exercises and flexibility versus heavy weights, now which is finally in vogue 20 years later. Meanwhile, Phil Jackson was very into mediation, which was adopted years later by Google with mindfulness training, and now mindfulness studios are popping up everywhere. Today, information is more accessible, but it’s still probably better to learn what Federer or Lebron does versus what your local trainer is recommending.
javajosh 8y ago
Athletes are performing difficult, demanding physical and mental tasks, in a team environment, and without a "safety net". Programmers are not performers, and we have a huge set of safety nets, but we can still learn focus, how to stay cool under pressure, and how to reach 'flow' from athletes. Exercises like Yoga and Tai Chi stress the mind body connection more explicitly than the NFL, but it's there in every sport.
coleifer 8y ago
Well, games and play have been a part of the human condition for thousands of years. It's not rational, but its definitely human. Instead of thinking "what can I get?" just revel in the players own sense of joy and mastery.

parthdesai 8y ago

Speaking of Ronaldo, if anyone hasn't seen this documentary, they definitely should. It show's his insane athleticism and reflexes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWR_ku1AAtM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWR_ku1AAtM

ericol 8y ago
And yet there's Messi https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossi...
- gilbetron 8y ago
  Ronaldo is peak human, Messi is supernatural.
- pmart123 8y ago
  I really liked this Messi article: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/messi-walks-better-than-most-players-run/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/messi-walks-better-than... To me, it really exemplifies that often it is better to slowly move into the right area, and save your resources for when it’s optimal to move quickly with a burst. I think a good analogy to this is when Warren Buffett talks about investing, he often talks about waiting for the right pitch. Often, the preparation might seem like no action or result in to action to the outside world, but enable you to be ready when the right situation arises.
  - parthdesai 8y ago
    That only works if you are Messi. If entire tea starts to take that approach, you are gonna have big problems.

rhcom2 8y ago

Jaromir Jagr is 46 and still playing professional hockey (not in the NHL anymore though). He was famous for staying at the practice rink until everyone else left.

pdwetz 8y ago
How much of that is luck/genetics? As a Mets fan, David Wright is an easy counter example of someone who was known to work hard and then struggled with injuries.

headsupftw 8y ago

Add men's tennis to that list. As we speak it's being dominated by three players who are over 30 (Djokovic 31, Nadal 32, Federer 37!!!). We are not saying they are still competitive but rather they are absolutely crushing everybody else including the youngin's. Even more phenomenal is that all three of them are candidates for THE GREATEST male athlete who has ever graced tennis fields. This was simply unimaginable even a couple years back when for decades ATP tennis had been considered a 20-something year olds' game.

bliblah 8y ago
Ah you are absolutely right! I recently read this article and it blew my mind to imagine that there are is such a concentration of talent in the older players. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/there-are-officially-zero-mens-grand-slam-winners-in-their-20s/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/there-are-officially-ze...

irrational 8y ago

Who are the two soccer players?

mhh__ 8y ago
Messi and (Cristiano) Ronaldo

thanosnose 8y ago

> I can't help but be drawn into the idea of "superhuman" feats and statistical outliers that always seem to permeate major sports. Because sports is just as much entertainment as it is sports. These leagues need someone to be the face of their product in order to draw crowds and make money. Jordan and the bulls were such a product of the 90s to save the NBA from the end of the lakers-celtics dominated 80s. Gretkzy, like montana, was part of a super team through with the NHL and NFL built their brands and generated interest in the 80s. Brady and a bunch of QBs were beneficiaries of the NFL's move toward more passing and increased scoring to generate interest. The NFL found out that most fans love passing and scoring while the few purists loved defense and the running game. So they changed the rules to handicap defenses, especially against the pass. Now every year, we get superhuman passing records being set. Look at the curry, durant and the golden state warriors today. Beneficiaries of NBA's move to handicap defenses and allow more scoring - which is what NBA fans, especially fans overseas ( particularly china ) like. The days of the dominant center in the NBA or the running back in NFL is over, until the climate shifts and the they need to rebrand the product. All these "superhuman" statistics are a result of "sports" + "entertainment". It's partly earned through athletic prowess and it's also manufactured by rules changes, refs "managing" the game, etc. Was gretzky that much better than messier ( his teammate ) or lemieux as the stats seem to imply? Absolutely not. Was jordan that much better than pippen ( his teammate ) or dominique wilkins as the stats seem to imply? Absolutely not. But someone has to be the face of the product the leagues are selling. And the NHL before gretzky and the NBA before jordan was facing problems which was magically solved by gretzky and jordan.

alexpetralia 8y ago
This is a fascinating and insightful analysis.
hedvig 8y ago
What NFL rule changes handicapped defenses, just curious?
- thanosnose 8y ago
  There are a bunch of rules - mostly protecting QBs from high and low hits and protecting receivers from contact and vicious hits. http://www.realclearlife.com/sports/nfl-rule-changes-created-golden-era-quarterback-stats/ http://www.realclearlife.com/sports/nfl-rule-changes-created... https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/cam-newton-tom-brady-show-nfl-passing-game-explosion-thanks-to-rule-changes-coaching-athletes-091611 https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/cam-newton-tom-brady-sho...