7 ms·

Wayne Gretzky and the Mysteries of Athletic Greatness

34 points by gringoDan 8y ago

this2shallPass 8y ago
The Mundanity of Excellence: An Ethnographic Report on Stratification and Olympic Swimmers came up yesterday https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18442600 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18442600 . It has interesting things to say about greatness. I wonder if what separates the very best of the best (e.g. Gretzky) from the best (professional Hockey Players) is analogous to what separates the best from everyone else. Or if it's just a matter of degree, not qualitatively different.
cknoxrun 8y ago
Interesting coincidence, I just had lunch in the booth next to Wayne. He's a kind person.
bliblah 8y ago
Although there are many in my circle of friends that are apathetic to sports, I can't help but be drawn into the idea of "superhuman" feats and statistical outliers that always seem to permeate major sports. We live in an era where being a 40 year old quarterback is not only possible but can play at top 1%. An era where an NBA player who entered after highschool has played for more than 15 years and has not had a major injury despite playing nonstop and has single highhandedly put a no name basketball team on the map. An era where not one but two of the greatest soccer players have played and peaked at the same time. And all this is happening as teams hire more Post Docs in Stats and Math to find the secret sauce that makes teams great or find ways to break the game in their favor. If you like Wayne Gretzky I suggest you look up interviews regarding the work ethic and impressive mental skills of other top players like Kobe Bryant and Cristiano Ronaldo, these guys are geniuses in their field but are absolute work horses with incredible discipline.
- donclark 8y ago
  I like to play sports (participate). I dont care to watch them - unless its my kids. For me, I think of great sports people like other top tier predators on the planet. Sure, they can be exciting to watch, but its just entertainment no? Do I (or we as humans) stand to learn something important from them?
  - gringoDan 8y ago
    I think there's something that can be learned from witnessing excellence in any area - writing, coding, music, sports...seeing the processes, discipline, out-of-the-box thinking, teamwork, etc. that lead to a great outcome can transfer over into other fields. Yes, sports are mainly for entertainment (and a series of never-ending cliches) but are also a microcosm of life. That being said, I agree that you'll learn much more from reading books, taking a course, etc. than sitting down and watching sports for the equivalent amount of time.
    - wesd 8y ago
      I coach soccer for my kids. The primary obstacle to players development is that they've never watched a game therefore you have to teach them everything.
    - thatcat 8y ago
      >you learn more about sports from reading than watching I'm not sure that's true, game tapes - if strategically cut together - can be very effective in teaching strategy and individual techniques for sports. Video games can also be very effective in this regard. This works because it activates mirror neurons when you imagine you're doing the thing you're watching.
      - gringoDan 8y ago
        To clarify, I meant you'd learn more (in a general sense) from activities other than watching sports. If you're looking to build expertise in a given sport, I agree that watching it is probably one of the best ways to do so.
  - 8y ago
- parthdesai 8y ago
  Speaking of Ronaldo, if anyone hasn't seen this documentary, they definitely should. It show's his insane athleticism and reflexes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWR_ku1AAtM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWR_ku1AAtM
  - ericol 8y ago
    And yet there's Messi https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossi...
    - gilbetron 8y ago
      Ronaldo is peak human, Messi is supernatural.
    - pmart123 8y ago
      I really liked this Messi article: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/messi-walks-better-than-most-players-run/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/messi-walks-better-than... To me, it really exemplifies that often it is better to slowly move into the right area, and save your resources for when it’s optimal to move quickly with a burst. I think a good analogy to this is when Warren Buffett talks about investing, he often talks about waiting for the right pitch. Often, the preparation might seem like no action or result in to action to the outside world, but enable you to be ready when the right situation arises.
      - parthdesai 8y ago
        That only works if you are Messi. If entire tea starts to take that approach, you are gonna have big problems.
- rhcom2 8y ago
  Jaromir Jagr is 46 and still playing professional hockey (not in the NHL anymore though). He was famous for staying at the practice rink until everyone else left.
  - pdwetz 8y ago
    How much of that is luck/genetics? As a Mets fan, David Wright is an easy counter example of someone who was known to work hard and then struggled with injuries.
- headsupftw 8y ago
  Add men's tennis to that list. As we speak it's being dominated by three players who are over 30 (Djokovic 31, Nadal 32, Federer 37!!!). We are not saying they are still competitive but rather they are absolutely crushing everybody else including the youngin's. Even more phenomenal is that all three of them are candidates for THE GREATEST male athlete who has ever graced tennis fields. This was simply unimaginable even a couple years back when for decades ATP tennis had been considered a 20-something year olds' game.
  - bliblah 8y ago
    Ah you are absolutely right! I recently read this article and it blew my mind to imagine that there are is such a concentration of talent in the older players. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/there-are-officially-zero-mens-grand-slam-winners-in-their-20s/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/there-are-officially-ze...
- irrational 8y ago
  Who are the two soccer players?
  - mhh__ 8y ago
    Messi and (Cristiano) Ronaldo
- thanosnose 8y ago
  > I can't help but be drawn into the idea of "superhuman" feats and statistical outliers that always seem to permeate major sports. Because sports is just as much entertainment as it is sports. These leagues need someone to be the face of their product in order to draw crowds and make money. Jordan and the bulls were such a product of the 90s to save the NBA from the end of the lakers-celtics dominated 80s. Gretkzy, like montana, was part of a super team through with the NHL and NFL built their brands and generated interest in the 80s. Brady and a bunch of QBs were beneficiaries of the NFL's move toward more passing and increased scoring to generate interest. The NFL found out that most fans love passing and scoring while the few purists loved defense and the running game. So they changed the rules to handicap defenses, especially against the pass. Now every year, we get superhuman passing records being set. Look at the curry, durant and the golden state warriors today. Beneficiaries of NBA's move to handicap defenses and allow more scoring - which is what NBA fans, especially fans overseas ( particularly china ) like. The days of the dominant center in the NBA or the running back in NFL is over, until the climate shifts and the they need to rebrand the product. All these "superhuman" statistics are a result of "sports" + "entertainment". It's partly earned through athletic prowess and it's also manufactured by rules changes, refs "managing" the game, etc. Was gretzky that much better than messier ( his teammate ) or lemieux as the stats seem to imply? Absolutely not. Was jordan that much better than pippen ( his teammate ) or dominique wilkins as the stats seem to imply? Absolutely not. But someone has to be the face of the product the leagues are selling. And the NHL before gretzky and the NBA before jordan was facing problems which was magically solved by gretzky and jordan.
  - alexpetralia 8y ago
    This is a fascinating and insightful analysis.
  - hedvig 8y ago
    What NFL rule changes handicapped defenses, just curious?
    - thanosnose 8y ago
      There are a bunch of rules - mostly protecting QBs from high and low hits and protecting receivers from contact and vicious hits. http://www.realclearlife.com/sports/nfl-rule-changes-created-golden-era-quarterback-stats/ http://www.realclearlife.com/sports/nfl-rule-changes-created... https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/cam-newton-tom-brady-show-nfl-passing-game-explosion-thanks-to-rule-changes-coaching-athletes-091611 https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/cam-newton-tom-brady-sho...
wnevets 8y ago
One of the things that doesn't get talk about enough or at all in these kinds of conversations is the support system that gets built around these "greats". For example if a team believes they have an amazing talent they're much more likely to spend money to surround them with other great/good talent on and off the ice/field/court. The "tanking" strategy being employed by a lot of teams the past decade or so is more evolved version of this. Teams will basically lose on purpose to stock up on high valued draft picks for years then pay for high end coaches and veterans of the sport once they believe they have enough talent. I believe this can also be applied outside of sports like education with private tutors, etc.
- sosborn 8y ago
  "Tanking" is a strategy that is talked about ad nauseam by sports radio gas bags, but is not likely to be an actual tactic being employed by organizations.
  - wnevets 8y ago
    What makes you think that? The NBA team 76ers for example would severely limit the number of minutes their high value draft picks played during the "rebuilding/tanking" seasons. The team even has a meme about it. https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/trust-the-process/ https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/trust-the-process/
  - hluska 8y ago
    Tanking is a big enough issue in sports that a few months ago, the commissioner of the NBA sent a memo promising to severely punish any team that deliberately loses. He wrote that memo shortly after fining Mark Cuban $500,000 for telling his team that losing was their best option.
  - elchief 8y ago
    The Colts did it: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/fl-omar-kelly-commentary-0117-20150116-story.html https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/fl-omar-k...
  - 8y ago
poof_he_is_gone 8y ago
LeBron James has a similar ability to recall plays, http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/11067098/lebron-james-greatest-weapon-brain http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/11067098/lebron-james-gre...
jbob2000 8y ago
No doubt Gretzky was great, but part of his greatness was the way hockey was played at the time - his greatness was as much a product of the rules as it was his passion for hockey. He was a hockey “hacker”, he exploited (intentionally or not) all sorts of rules that forced the NHL to update them. Today’s game seems to be fairly well guarded against this, though it does still happen (they had to rule against the 1-3-1 defense recently, for example). And teams are now very well aware of superstar players and will shut them down very quickly (eg. Sydney Crosby basically getting beat up any time his skates touch the rink). It’s a better game now, but a shame that we probably won’t see hockey superstars for a while.
- cknoxrun 8y ago
  Watching McDavid or Crosby on the ice, live, makes it very clear that they are still absolutely in a class of their own. I think these types of players are so good that they change quicker than the game can adapt. Crosby had some trouble in his earlier years, but not anymore.
  - jbob2000 8y ago
    Oh no doubt! They are good, and fun to watch. But in Gretzky’s best season, he scored 212 points. The closest anyone has gotten recently has been Ovechkin at 112. The game has changed, you couldn’t get a Gretzky again.
    - cknoxrun 8y ago
      Fair enough, that does make sense. It's hard to understand how much the game has changed until you watch an older game from the 80's, it's a different flow entirely. On an unrelated note, I am lucky to have some very cherished memories of sneaking down after bedtime and being welcomed onto my father's lap to watch Wayne Gretzky and the Oilers play. Sports can have a bad rap in tech communities, but I'll never forget the feeling of excitement (and warmth) watching those games in the dark.
    - markdog12 8y ago
      215 (163 assists alone). 4 seasons over 200. Check out the insanity: https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/most-points-in-one-season-by-nhl-players.html https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/most-points-in-one-s... (Unless you mean 212 season was best due to 92 (lol) goals)
alienreborn 8y ago
Similar edge case in cricket is Bradman. Most great cricket batsmen Test batting average is around 50-60 and Bradman's average is 99.94 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/wi/content/records/282910.html http://stats.espncricinfo.com/wi/content/records/282910.html
- stevesimmons 8y ago
  When I was a kid growing up in Australia, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) always described its mailing address in each state as "PO Box 9994 in your capital city". Years later, I discovered this number was assigned in homage to Sir Donald Bradman's batting average. Less well known is the ABC's national telephone number 13 9994.
angelSpit 8y ago
The only thing that matters about Wayne Gretzky, is that without him, Paulina Gretzky would not have been a Google Image search worth browsing: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Paulina+Gretzky+!gi https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Paulina+Gretzky+!gi
elchief 8y ago
Gretzky was also Robin Thicke's babysitter, though not so great at it https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/superfan-alan-thicke-wanye-gretzky-trade-hockey-montreal/sn-amp/ https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/supe...
markdog12 8y ago
Most impressive Gretzky stat may be Bernie Nicholls scoring 150 pts (70 goals) while on Gretzky's line.
- clausok 8y ago
  Good point. Perhaps the only player the hockey gods were as kind to as Nicholls was Kevin Stevens when he broke the 100 point level twice in the early 90's while playing on a line with Mario Lemieux and Jaromír Jágr.

34 points by gringoDan 8y ago

The Mundanity of Excellence: An Ethnographic Report on Stratification and Olympic Swimmers came up yesterday https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18442600 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18442600 . It has interesting things to say about greatness. I wonder if what separates the very best of the best (e.g. Gretzky) from the best (professional Hockey Players) is analogous to what separates the best from everyone else. Or if it's just a matter of degree, not qualitatively different.

cknoxrun 8y ago

Interesting coincidence, I just had lunch in the booth next to Wayne. He's a kind person.

bliblah 8y ago

Although there are many in my circle of friends that are apathetic to sports, I can't help but be drawn into the idea of "superhuman" feats and statistical outliers that always seem to permeate major sports. We live in an era where being a 40 year old quarterback is not only possible but can play at top 1%. An era where an NBA player who entered after highschool has played for more than 15 years and has not had a major injury despite playing nonstop and has single highhandedly put a no name basketball team on the map. An era where not one but two of the greatest soccer players have played and peaked at the same time. And all this is happening as teams hire more Post Docs in Stats and Math to find the secret sauce that makes teams great or find ways to break the game in their favor. If you like Wayne Gretzky I suggest you look up interviews regarding the work ethic and impressive mental skills of other top players like Kobe Bryant and Cristiano Ronaldo, these guys are geniuses in their field but are absolute work horses with incredible discipline.

donclark 8y ago
I like to play sports (participate). I dont care to watch them - unless its my kids. For me, I think of great sports people like other top tier predators on the planet. Sure, they can be exciting to watch, but its just entertainment no? Do I (or we as humans) stand to learn something important from them?
- gringoDan 8y ago
  I think there's something that can be learned from witnessing excellence in any area - writing, coding, music, sports...seeing the processes, discipline, out-of-the-box thinking, teamwork, etc. that lead to a great outcome can transfer over into other fields. Yes, sports are mainly for entertainment (and a series of never-ending cliches) but are also a microcosm of life. That being said, I agree that you'll learn much more from reading books, taking a course, etc. than sitting down and watching sports for the equivalent amount of time.
  - wesd 8y ago
    I coach soccer for my kids. The primary obstacle to players development is that they've never watched a game therefore you have to teach them everything.
  - thatcat 8y ago
    >you learn more about sports from reading than watching I'm not sure that's true, game tapes - if strategically cut together - can be very effective in teaching strategy and individual techniques for sports. Video games can also be very effective in this regard. This works because it activates mirror neurons when you imagine you're doing the thing you're watching.
    - gringoDan 8y ago
      To clarify, I meant you'd learn more (in a general sense) from activities other than watching sports. If you're looking to build expertise in a given sport, I agree that watching it is probably one of the best ways to do so.
- 8y ago
parthdesai 8y ago
Speaking of Ronaldo, if anyone hasn't seen this documentary, they definitely should. It show's his insane athleticism and reflexes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWR_ku1AAtM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWR_ku1AAtM
- ericol 8y ago
  And yet there's Messi https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossi...
  - gilbetron 8y ago
    Ronaldo is peak human, Messi is supernatural.
  - pmart123 8y ago
    I really liked this Messi article: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/messi-walks-better-than-most-players-run/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/messi-walks-better-than... To me, it really exemplifies that often it is better to slowly move into the right area, and save your resources for when it’s optimal to move quickly with a burst. I think a good analogy to this is when Warren Buffett talks about investing, he often talks about waiting for the right pitch. Often, the preparation might seem like no action or result in to action to the outside world, but enable you to be ready when the right situation arises.
    - parthdesai 8y ago
      That only works if you are Messi. If entire tea starts to take that approach, you are gonna have big problems.
rhcom2 8y ago
Jaromir Jagr is 46 and still playing professional hockey (not in the NHL anymore though). He was famous for staying at the practice rink until everyone else left.
- pdwetz 8y ago
  How much of that is luck/genetics? As a Mets fan, David Wright is an easy counter example of someone who was known to work hard and then struggled with injuries.
headsupftw 8y ago
Add men's tennis to that list. As we speak it's being dominated by three players who are over 30 (Djokovic 31, Nadal 32, Federer 37!!!). We are not saying they are still competitive but rather they are absolutely crushing everybody else including the youngin's. Even more phenomenal is that all three of them are candidates for THE GREATEST male athlete who has ever graced tennis fields. This was simply unimaginable even a couple years back when for decades ATP tennis had been considered a 20-something year olds' game.
- bliblah 8y ago
  Ah you are absolutely right! I recently read this article and it blew my mind to imagine that there are is such a concentration of talent in the older players. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/there-are-officially-zero-mens-grand-slam-winners-in-their-20s/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/there-are-officially-ze...
irrational 8y ago
Who are the two soccer players?
- mhh__ 8y ago
  Messi and (Cristiano) Ronaldo
thanosnose 8y ago
> I can't help but be drawn into the idea of "superhuman" feats and statistical outliers that always seem to permeate major sports. Because sports is just as much entertainment as it is sports. These leagues need someone to be the face of their product in order to draw crowds and make money. Jordan and the bulls were such a product of the 90s to save the NBA from the end of the lakers-celtics dominated 80s. Gretkzy, like montana, was part of a super team through with the NHL and NFL built their brands and generated interest in the 80s. Brady and a bunch of QBs were beneficiaries of the NFL's move toward more passing and increased scoring to generate interest. The NFL found out that most fans love passing and scoring while the few purists loved defense and the running game. So they changed the rules to handicap defenses, especially against the pass. Now every year, we get superhuman passing records being set. Look at the curry, durant and the golden state warriors today. Beneficiaries of NBA's move to handicap defenses and allow more scoring - which is what NBA fans, especially fans overseas ( particularly china ) like. The days of the dominant center in the NBA or the running back in NFL is over, until the climate shifts and the they need to rebrand the product. All these "superhuman" statistics are a result of "sports" + "entertainment". It's partly earned through athletic prowess and it's also manufactured by rules changes, refs "managing" the game, etc. Was gretzky that much better than messier ( his teammate ) or lemieux as the stats seem to imply? Absolutely not. Was jordan that much better than pippen ( his teammate ) or dominique wilkins as the stats seem to imply? Absolutely not. But someone has to be the face of the product the leagues are selling. And the NHL before gretzky and the NBA before jordan was facing problems which was magically solved by gretzky and jordan.
- alexpetralia 8y ago
  This is a fascinating and insightful analysis.
- hedvig 8y ago
  What NFL rule changes handicapped defenses, just curious?
  - thanosnose 8y ago
    There are a bunch of rules - mostly protecting QBs from high and low hits and protecting receivers from contact and vicious hits. http://www.realclearlife.com/sports/nfl-rule-changes-created-golden-era-quarterback-stats/ http://www.realclearlife.com/sports/nfl-rule-changes-created... https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/cam-newton-tom-brady-show-nfl-passing-game-explosion-thanks-to-rule-changes-coaching-athletes-091611 https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/cam-newton-tom-brady-sho...

wnevets 8y ago

One of the things that doesn't get talk about enough or at all in these kinds of conversations is the support system that gets built around these "greats". For example if a team believes they have an amazing talent they're much more likely to spend money to surround them with other great/good talent on and off the ice/field/court. The "tanking" strategy being employed by a lot of teams the past decade or so is more evolved version of this. Teams will basically lose on purpose to stock up on high valued draft picks for years then pay for high end coaches and veterans of the sport once they believe they have enough talent. I believe this can also be applied outside of sports like education with private tutors, etc.

sosborn 8y ago
"Tanking" is a strategy that is talked about ad nauseam by sports radio gas bags, but is not likely to be an actual tactic being employed by organizations.
- wnevets 8y ago
  What makes you think that? The NBA team 76ers for example would severely limit the number of minutes their high value draft picks played during the "rebuilding/tanking" seasons. The team even has a meme about it. https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/trust-the-process/ https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/trust-the-process/
- hluska 8y ago
  Tanking is a big enough issue in sports that a few months ago, the commissioner of the NBA sent a memo promising to severely punish any team that deliberately loses. He wrote that memo shortly after fining Mark Cuban $500,000 for telling his team that losing was their best option.
- elchief 8y ago
  The Colts did it: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/fl-omar-kelly-commentary-0117-20150116-story.html https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/fl-omar-k...
- 8y ago

poof_he_is_gone 8y ago

LeBron James has a similar ability to recall plays, http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/11067098/lebron-james-greatest-weapon-brain http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/11067098/lebron-james-gre...

jbob2000 8y ago

No doubt Gretzky was great, but part of his greatness was the way hockey was played at the time - his greatness was as much a product of the rules as it was his passion for hockey. He was a hockey “hacker”, he exploited (intentionally or not) all sorts of rules that forced the NHL to update them. Today’s game seems to be fairly well guarded against this, though it does still happen (they had to rule against the 1-3-1 defense recently, for example). And teams are now very well aware of superstar players and will shut them down very quickly (eg. Sydney Crosby basically getting beat up any time his skates touch the rink). It’s a better game now, but a shame that we probably won’t see hockey superstars for a while.

cknoxrun 8y ago
Watching McDavid or Crosby on the ice, live, makes it very clear that they are still absolutely in a class of their own. I think these types of players are so good that they change quicker than the game can adapt. Crosby had some trouble in his earlier years, but not anymore.
- jbob2000 8y ago
  Oh no doubt! They are good, and fun to watch. But in Gretzky’s best season, he scored 212 points. The closest anyone has gotten recently has been Ovechkin at 112. The game has changed, you couldn’t get a Gretzky again.
  - cknoxrun 8y ago
    Fair enough, that does make sense. It's hard to understand how much the game has changed until you watch an older game from the 80's, it's a different flow entirely. On an unrelated note, I am lucky to have some very cherished memories of sneaking down after bedtime and being welcomed onto my father's lap to watch Wayne Gretzky and the Oilers play. Sports can have a bad rap in tech communities, but I'll never forget the feeling of excitement (and warmth) watching those games in the dark.
  - markdog12 8y ago
    215 (163 assists alone). 4 seasons over 200. Check out the insanity: https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/most-points-in-one-season-by-nhl-players.html https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/most-points-in-one-s... (Unless you mean 212 season was best due to 92 (lol) goals)

alienreborn 8y ago

Similar edge case in cricket is Bradman. Most great cricket batsmen Test batting average is around 50-60 and Bradman's average is 99.94 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/wi/content/records/282910.html http://stats.espncricinfo.com/wi/content/records/282910.html

stevesimmons 8y ago
When I was a kid growing up in Australia, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) always described its mailing address in each state as "PO Box 9994 in your capital city". Years later, I discovered this number was assigned in homage to Sir Donald Bradman's batting average. Less well known is the ABC's national telephone number 13 9994.

angelSpit 8y ago

The only thing that matters about Wayne Gretzky, is that without him, Paulina Gretzky would not have been a Google Image search worth browsing: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Paulina+Gretzky+!gi https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Paulina+Gretzky+!gi

elchief 8y ago

Gretzky was also Robin Thicke's babysitter, though not so great at it https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/superfan-alan-thicke-wanye-gretzky-trade-hockey-montreal/sn-amp/ https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/supe...

markdog12 8y ago

Most impressive Gretzky stat may be Bernie Nicholls scoring 150 pts (70 goals) while on Gretzky's line.

clausok 8y ago
Good point. Perhaps the only player the hockey gods were as kind to as Nicholls was Kevin Stevens when he broke the 100 point level twice in the early 90's while playing on a line with Mario Lemieux and Jaromír Jágr.