4 ms·

I don't think the points about the engine are very compelling. Just because something has a number of somewhat independent pieces doesn't mean it's also not a m

by nilkn 8y ago

I don't think the points about the engine are very compelling. Just because something has a number of somewhat independent pieces doesn't mean it's also not a monolithic whole at the same time. That's why it's still called an engine, and that's why even Bethesda refers to it as such. That's also why they won't move away from it -- because there's an entire toolset built on top of it that every component has to interoperate with. It's the same idea with a car -- just because it has a separate transmission doesn't mean it's not a 1990 Honda Accord at the end of the day. That said, I will admit that my language could have been more precise. It's less that they won't "move away" from their old engine, and it's more that they won't invest properly in updating it for modern times. Anyone who has played Oblivion can attest to the fact that, even if they've swapped out the terrain system or the lighting effects system, their new games are just reskinned copies of Oblivion, complete with all the same bugs, quirks, idiosyncracies, and lack of decent PC support that's always been there. In the past Bethesda has relied on modders dealing with things like supporting modern monitors. Now that's not possible with Fallout 76, so the poor PC support becomes much more pronounced. For what it's worth, I think it's hard to draw too many conclusions from the Steam hardware survey, because that's including everyone with Steam. Instead of asking how many Steam accounts have a 21:9 resolution monitor, it would be better to ask how many potential PC buyers of Fallout 76 have a 21:9 resolution monitor, and I suspect the number is higher than 2 million. You have to keep in mind many of those 1080p 16:9 folks have Steam on an old desktop or a laptop that couldn't even run Fallout 76 decently -- there are plenty of 2D indie games that would still justify having Steam installed.

badsectoracula 8y ago
I didn't really argue about the engine being monolithic or not though, i argued that, in your own words: > they won't invest properly in updating it for modern times This is very different from "moving away" from their old engine and isn't just a matter of language precision: one requires rewriting everything from scratch in a multiyear project that is a big undertaking on its own (with results that are very likely to not be as stable and bug free as people would imagine) that practically no company with an existing codebase does anymore (especially at the stage and size of Bethesda), whereas the other requires fixing a few subsystems that are already there and a tiny fraction of their existing codebase that can be done as part of their updates between games. It is certainly a much smaller change than the renderer updates they've done so far. About the Steam hardware survey, every PC gamer has Steam installed (there might be a few who do not, but they either only play one or two games, like Battlefield or somesuch, so they do not really matter as far as PC audience comes, or they are so few that they are statistically insignificant - for all intents and purposes Steam has a monopoly on the market and both developers and publishers use every single statistic it provides as pretty much The Truth). With that in mind, PC buyers for Fallout 76 - or any other AAA game - are inside this audience, either as a whole or as a subset, so this 2 million is actually the best case. In practice it is most likely lower because not every single one of those 2m gamers would be interested in Fallout 76 (it isn't like having an ultrawide monitor is some sort of requirement to like the game :-P).
- nilkn 8y ago
  Bethesda is possibly the only AAA developer with this problem. What do you think all the other game developers in the world are doing? How exactly did RDR2 ever get made? How did BF V ever get made? How did AC: Odyssey ever get made? How did Nintendo ever make Breath of the Wild or Mario Odyssey? How did CD Projekt ever manage to make TW3? It's easy to defend Bethesda here until you play pretty much any other full-priced AAA $60 modern game. None of these games are one-off projects -- every single one is from a long-running franchise going back many years if not decades. Not every PC gamer is in the potential target audience of Fallout 76. That doesn't increase the numerator -- it dramatically decreases the denominator, making those 2 million a much bigger percentage. Either way, I feel vindicated with Fallout 76 now being the lowest rated Fallout game in history, selling >80% fewer copies than Fallout 4, etc. Hopefully Bethesda learns a lesson from this and starts putting in the same effort as their peers in the industry.
  - badsectoracula 8y ago
    I'm not sure why you think i defend Bethesda... i wrote in my original message above that "The issue is that Bethesda doesn't fix their engine", which is also why i wrote that "in your own words > they won't invest properly in updating it for modern times" in my second message. My argument was really the part i originally quoted, specifically this: > their insistence on sticking with their old creation engine ...because it is a common thing to say about Bethesda. But the reality is that they can stick with their engine just fine - they just need to fix their bugs. The problem isn't that they keep using their engine, everyone does (as you already wrote in the first paragraph here), the problem is that they do not give their programmers the necessary time to fix the issues with their engine.

by nilkn 8y ago

badsectoracula 8y ago

I didn't really argue about the engine being monolithic or not though, i argued that, in your own words: > they won't invest properly in updating it for modern times This is very different from "moving away" from their old engine and isn't just a matter of language precision: one requires rewriting everything from scratch in a multiyear project that is a big undertaking on its own (with results that are very likely to not be as stable and bug free as people would imagine) that practically no company with an existing codebase does anymore (especially at the stage and size of Bethesda), whereas the other requires fixing a few subsystems that are already there and a tiny fraction of their existing codebase that can be done as part of their updates between games. It is certainly a much smaller change than the renderer updates they've done so far. About the Steam hardware survey, every PC gamer has Steam installed (there might be a few who do not, but they either only play one or two games, like Battlefield or somesuch, so they do not really matter as far as PC audience comes, or they are so few that they are statistically insignificant - for all intents and purposes Steam has a monopoly on the market and both developers and publishers use every single statistic it provides as pretty much The Truth). With that in mind, PC buyers for Fallout 76 - or any other AAA game - are inside this audience, either as a whole or as a subset, so this 2 million is actually the best case. In practice it is most likely lower because not every single one of those 2m gamers would be interested in Fallout 76 (it isn't like having an ultrawide monitor is some sort of requirement to like the game :-P).

nilkn 8y ago
Bethesda is possibly the only AAA developer with this problem. What do you think all the other game developers in the world are doing? How exactly did RDR2 ever get made? How did BF V ever get made? How did AC: Odyssey ever get made? How did Nintendo ever make Breath of the Wild or Mario Odyssey? How did CD Projekt ever manage to make TW3? It's easy to defend Bethesda here until you play pretty much any other full-priced AAA $60 modern game. None of these games are one-off projects -- every single one is from a long-running franchise going back many years if not decades. Not every PC gamer is in the potential target audience of Fallout 76. That doesn't increase the numerator -- it dramatically decreases the denominator, making those 2 million a much bigger percentage. Either way, I feel vindicated with Fallout 76 now being the lowest rated Fallout game in history, selling >80% fewer copies than Fallout 4, etc. Hopefully Bethesda learns a lesson from this and starts putting in the same effort as their peers in the industry.
- badsectoracula 8y ago
  I'm not sure why you think i defend Bethesda... i wrote in my original message above that "The issue is that Bethesda doesn't fix their engine", which is also why i wrote that "in your own words > they won't invest properly in updating it for modern times" in my second message. My argument was really the part i originally quoted, specifically this: > their insistence on sticking with their old creation engine ...because it is a common thing to say about Bethesda. But the reality is that they can stick with their engine just fine - they just need to fix their bugs. The problem isn't that they keep using their engine, everyone does (as you already wrote in the first paragraph here), the problem is that they do not give their programmers the necessary time to fix the issues with their engine.