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Unpaid overtime definitely conflicts with labour law. There is also a maximum amount of hours you are technically allowed to work on a day, which is ten. Sixty

by fruffy 8y ago

Unpaid overtime definitely conflicts with labour law. There is also a maximum amount of hours you are technically allowed to work on a day, which is ten. Sixty hours also is the absolute weekly maximum with 48 hours being the regular maximum. However, if you do not report these hours no one will ever know.

zeroname 8y ago
> Unpaid overtime definitely conflicts with labour law. I can't find any evidence that it does. It seems to be common practice: https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/342740-unpaid-overtime-common-in-germany/ https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/342740-unpaid-ove... If you receive a salary, you don't get paid by the hour. If your contract says you don't have a right for compensation (monetary or otherwise) for extra hours, then you don't. Negotiating such terms is up to the employee (or the unions). > There is also a maximum amount of hours you are technically allowed to work on a day, which is ten. That's a different thing from not being paid for hours you work extra.
- fruffy 8y ago
  https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/45108/is-overtime-always-paid-in-germany https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/45108/is-overt... I think this is a good summary of the law in practice. Any overtime has to be compensated by the employer. Obviously, there are ways people work around it if the employee is fine with it... However, if you go to court about unpaid overtime you are sure to win. This has obviously implications on your hireability though. On paper you are protected.
- zahrc 8y ago
  Use German resources if you want to learn about Germany. This is no offense but it's an annoying fact. https://www.arbeitsrecht.org/arbeitnehmer/arbeitszeit/so-lange-muessen-und-duerfen-sie-hoechstens-arbeiten/ https://www.arbeitsrecht.org/arbeitnehmer/arbeitszeit/so-lan... Tldr; employees and employers have to make sure that no-one oversteps the 10 hour maximum. Basically I could get fired if I do, because my employer could get into trouble.
  - zeroname 8y ago
    > Use German resources if you want to learn about Germany. This is an English speaking forum. Unless you have evidence that the English resources contradict the german ones, calling me out on this is pointless. > Tldr; employees and employers have to make sure that no-one oversteps the 10 hour maximum. That's not the point. The point is do you have a right to get compensated for extra hours. Let's say you're hired for 36hrs/week but the reality is closer to 40. The contract says you're not entitled to compensation for overtime. As far as the law is concerned, I see no problem here whatsoever.
    - Xylakant 8y ago
      > The contract says you're not entitled to compensation for overtime. As far as the law is concerned, I see no problem here whatsoever. You don't. The Bundesarbeitsgericht (the highest court for labor disputes) does: https://juris.bundesarbeitsgericht.de/cgi-bin/rechtsprechung/document.py?Gericht=bag&Art=pm&nr=15709 https://juris.bundesarbeitsgericht.de/cgi-bin/rechtsprechung... You can include clauses that allow limited unpaid overtime, for example "36 hours per week and up to 16 hours of unpaid overtime per month", but then, as an employee, you should treat that as a 40 hours contract. Unpaid overtime cannot be agreed upon retroactively, it must be in the initial contract. Unlimited overtime is not permissible except for people in certain positions (Managing Directors or other people with full control over their time are generally exempt from that, people with sufficiently high compensation might be [the usual threshold is the Beitragsbemessungsgrenze der gesetzlichen Rentenversicherung which increases yearly and is currently at about 80k EUR/year]) However, the legal situation differs from the situation on the ground. Companies still offer contracts with invalid and unenforceable rules and employees are still afraid to sue, even though you can sue for unpaid overtime after you leave.
      - zeroname 8y ago
        If you actually look at the court case, the guy won because the contract was unclear on its terms, not because such terms are inadmissable in general. That's why the lower court didn't decide in his favor. The decision doesn't generalize across all contracts. > You can include clauses that allow limited unpaid overtime, for example "36 hours per week and up to 16 hours of unpaid overtime per month", but then, as an employee, you should treat that as a 40 hours contract. That's besides the point. The question is, is that paid overtime? If you ask me, it isn't because any extra hour worked doesn't translate into extra money. > Unpaid overtime cannot be agreed upon retroactively, it must be in the initial contract. It didn't claim otherwise, I explicitly said it has to be in the contract and from what I read in other places, it seems commonplace.
- StreamBright 8y ago
  Drug trade is a common practice yet it is illegal. My employers would not risk to be caught and punished for unpaid overtime or more than 10 hours / day work on average. It was explicitly told us that we cannot work more than 8 hours on average and everybody is pretty serious about that. Not sure what industry or what companies are you talking about and referring to it as common practice.

by fruffy 8y ago

zeroname 8y ago

> Unpaid overtime definitely conflicts with labour law. I can't find any evidence that it does. It seems to be common practice: https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/342740-unpaid-overtime-common-in-germany/ https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/342740-unpaid-ove... If you receive a salary, you don't get paid by the hour. If your contract says you don't have a right for compensation (monetary or otherwise) for extra hours, then you don't. Negotiating such terms is up to the employee (or the unions). > There is also a maximum amount of hours you are technically allowed to work on a day, which is ten. That's a different thing from not being paid for hours you work extra.

fruffy 8y ago
https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/45108/is-overtime-always-paid-in-germany https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/45108/is-overt... I think this is a good summary of the law in practice. Any overtime has to be compensated by the employer. Obviously, there are ways people work around it if the employee is fine with it... However, if you go to court about unpaid overtime you are sure to win. This has obviously implications on your hireability though. On paper you are protected.
zahrc 8y ago
Use German resources if you want to learn about Germany. This is no offense but it's an annoying fact. https://www.arbeitsrecht.org/arbeitnehmer/arbeitszeit/so-lange-muessen-und-duerfen-sie-hoechstens-arbeiten/ https://www.arbeitsrecht.org/arbeitnehmer/arbeitszeit/so-lan... Tldr; employees and employers have to make sure that no-one oversteps the 10 hour maximum. Basically I could get fired if I do, because my employer could get into trouble.
- zeroname 8y ago
  > Use German resources if you want to learn about Germany. This is an English speaking forum. Unless you have evidence that the English resources contradict the german ones, calling me out on this is pointless. > Tldr; employees and employers have to make sure that no-one oversteps the 10 hour maximum. That's not the point. The point is do you have a right to get compensated for extra hours. Let's say you're hired for 36hrs/week but the reality is closer to 40. The contract says you're not entitled to compensation for overtime. As far as the law is concerned, I see no problem here whatsoever.
  - Xylakant 8y ago
    > The contract says you're not entitled to compensation for overtime. As far as the law is concerned, I see no problem here whatsoever. You don't. The Bundesarbeitsgericht (the highest court for labor disputes) does: https://juris.bundesarbeitsgericht.de/cgi-bin/rechtsprechung/document.py?Gericht=bag&Art=pm&nr=15709 https://juris.bundesarbeitsgericht.de/cgi-bin/rechtsprechung... You can include clauses that allow limited unpaid overtime, for example "36 hours per week and up to 16 hours of unpaid overtime per month", but then, as an employee, you should treat that as a 40 hours contract. Unpaid overtime cannot be agreed upon retroactively, it must be in the initial contract. Unlimited overtime is not permissible except for people in certain positions (Managing Directors or other people with full control over their time are generally exempt from that, people with sufficiently high compensation might be [the usual threshold is the Beitragsbemessungsgrenze der gesetzlichen Rentenversicherung which increases yearly and is currently at about 80k EUR/year]) However, the legal situation differs from the situation on the ground. Companies still offer contracts with invalid and unenforceable rules and employees are still afraid to sue, even though you can sue for unpaid overtime after you leave.
    - zeroname 8y ago
      If you actually look at the court case, the guy won because the contract was unclear on its terms, not because such terms are inadmissable in general. That's why the lower court didn't decide in his favor. The decision doesn't generalize across all contracts. > You can include clauses that allow limited unpaid overtime, for example "36 hours per week and up to 16 hours of unpaid overtime per month", but then, as an employee, you should treat that as a 40 hours contract. That's besides the point. The question is, is that paid overtime? If you ask me, it isn't because any extra hour worked doesn't translate into extra money. > Unpaid overtime cannot be agreed upon retroactively, it must be in the initial contract. It didn't claim otherwise, I explicitly said it has to be in the contract and from what I read in other places, it seems commonplace.
StreamBright 8y ago
Drug trade is a common practice yet it is illegal. My employers would not risk to be caught and punished for unpaid overtime or more than 10 hours / day work on average. It was explicitly told us that we cannot work more than 8 hours on average and everybody is pretty serious about that. Not sure what industry or what companies are you talking about and referring to it as common practice.