5 ms·

Long Polling – Concepts and Considerations

48 points by srushtika 8y ago

ben509 8y ago
This is pretty interesting as an examination of long polling on the browser as an alternative to websockets. Most of my experience was with it on the backend, e.g. SQS[1] and hadn't thought much about it beyond, "sit in a loop and check for tasks on a queue." One of the advantages of that approach, I think, was that the queue service is dedicated to just that task so the complexity on that server is all in one place. It would be great if they went into some of the additional architecture they've had to implement to, e.g., prevent denial of service. [1]: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSSimpleQueueService/latest/SQSDeveloperGuide/sqs-long-polling.html https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSSimpleQueueService/latest/SQS...
paulddraper 8y ago
Comet is really an underrated technology. Because, it's not a separate technology. It's worked in browsers for years, and is compatible with any HTTP server toolkit/framework that lets you stream a response (so basically all of them). That said....who would use Comet for long polling? You'd use Comet to avoid the difficulties of long polling.
- tome 8y ago
  How is Comet different from long polling? It's not clear to me. The article only mentions COMET in the context of a Python server, and the Wikipedia page isn't much help https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_(programming) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_(programming)
  - paulddraper 8y ago
    It appears my usage is a little different than wikipedia. Apparently "Comet" can mean multiple things. I meant "streaming Comet", which is in my experience what most people mean. Long polling: (1) Request (2) Wait (3) Receive an event. (4) Go back to #1. Streaming Comet: (1) Request (2) Wait (3) Receive an event (4) Go back to #2. Rather than getting a raw response from the server in a request, streaming Comet loads the response in a iframe. The response is streaming HTML and has a series of <script> tags that post events to the parent window. It's arguably easier to manage and scale (no missed events, no need to find the same server again), though it certainly looks a little odd.
majke 8y ago
The title brings nostalgia! For me it all started when Michael Carter worked on orbited, years ago (was it 2008?). Michael made a number of important "discoveries", like the famous document.domain trick: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Security/Same-origin_policy#Changing_origin https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Security/Same-o... Then I played with libevent, trying to create a framework for comet applications. Then redis came along, perfect for backend and Websockets in browsers. Then of course node.js became a popular engine for messaging applications. In the mean time we worked on SockJS, to make the transition from comet to websockets smoother. Oh, all those tricks employed in Sockjs... https://github.com/sockjs/sockjs-client#supported-transports-by-browser-html-served-from-http-or-https https://github.com/sockjs/sockjs-client#supported-transports... There still is a place for things like Opera Eventsource, but it seems websockets over TLS is now the best, stable, and portable way of doing messaging on the web.
jordache 8y ago
In present time, is there an advantage of long polling pattern vs web socket?
- napsterbr 8y ago
  Just the fact that it's stateless and therefore may result in a simpler application and infrastructure. But I belive that, in this case, the pros of websocket outweigh its cons. That said, I've been working with a middle ground: http 2 + sse. Gives the benefit of simpler infrastructure while not being as inefficient as short/long-polling. ETA: after using websocket for a while, one of the major downsides is that you can't use most of the http ecosystem. Stuff like cloudflare workers, cloudflare anti-ddos[0], swagger api docs, caching etc. I recently switched to http 2 + sse and do not regret. [0] - they do support websockets, but at a limited and undisclosed rate (I.e. You don't know how many is too many until they ask you to upgrade your plan).
- nitwit005 8y ago
  If you support HTTP2, the long poll requests will generally reuse a connection. Websockets consume a connection, which can result in hitting issues with opening a lot of tabs. There was a proposal to make it compatible with HTTP2, but I don't believe it went anywhere.
derek_frome 8y ago
PubNub is probably the most experienced company in this area. Would be interesting to see them add their experience here.
- stephenblum 8y ago
  Hi Derek. Thank you for mentioning us here. The age-old conversation on transport protocols is evergreen. The goal of these protocols is to allow data transmission from one device, to other devices. It is great to be on the leading edge of technology, continuing the innovative optimizations of the use of the internet. As the internet scales, more devices need connectivity and each byte counts more and more. There are 20 billion connected internet devices today (2018). That's 2x more than the number of humans. The device to human ratio continues to grow. We need efficient and affective methods for coordinating information between devices. The various methods to coordinate information between devices on the internet should be looked at objectively and mechanically. At the end of the day, the modern reliable messaging protocols use the IP Frames. The basis of our internet. Layer 6 protocols based on IP Frames are not equal. Many methods are not compatible with the various configurations of networks. The bytes and bandwidth required between each production-ready method differ. * HTTP/1.1 - 100% Compatibility * HTTP/2.0 - 100% Compatibility with client initiated connectivity and backward compatibility with HTTP/1 * MQTT - near-full internet wide compatibility ( routing policy / network topology ) * WS - near-full internet wide compatibility ( routing policy / network topology ) Each message received using these mechanisms requires TCP ACKs. The promise of MQTT and WS leads you to believe that the data streaming to your device over WS or MQTT don't require ACKs. However this is not how TCP works. When packets are received there is an associated timeout and retransmission when an ACK is late or missing. Additionally light-weight layer 6 traffic is required to maintain connectivity between two endpoints. Otherwise LRUs and quotas are triggered for routes could be treated as stale, and therefore dropped altogether. This is the underlying mechanism of the layer 6 protocols that are often left out of the discussions. There is a clear winning approach in my mind. HTTP/2.0 includes, by default, server-initiated data push. The required TLS and header compression, as part of the spec, allow for a secure yet efficient streaming solution. With HTTP/2.0, TCP socket limits are less of a concern, as the client only needs one TCP socket to subscribe to an unlimited number of data feeds. HTTP/1 requires the client to maintain separate sockets for each independent stream, as HTTP/1 enforces head-of-line ordering for muxing. Something we've done special for HTTP/1 clients, we've added multiplexing by allowing multiple topic subscriptions and filter expressions to be passed in a single HTTP call on the same socket. This isn't natively built into HTTP/1 and is supported on all our SDKs. This is why we have chosen HTTP/2.0 as our next-gen transport protocol. We have started by providing HTTP/2.0 connectivity at our edge for select customers. As of 2018 PubNub is the world-record holder for the largest online concurrent event in human history using HTTP/2.0 for live data streams on a globally celebrated sporting event. You should be using HTTP/2.0 for your customers. Here is a dockerfile that makes it easy for you to start testing HTTP/2.0 - https://github.com/stephenlb/http2-proxy https://github.com/stephenlb/http2-proxy Stephen Blum ( @stephenlb ) CTO PubNub

48 points by srushtika 8y ago

This is pretty interesting as an examination of long polling on the browser as an alternative to websockets. Most of my experience was with it on the backend, e.g. SQS[1] and hadn't thought much about it beyond, "sit in a loop and check for tasks on a queue." One of the advantages of that approach, I think, was that the queue service is dedicated to just that task so the complexity on that server is all in one place. It would be great if they went into some of the additional architecture they've had to implement to, e.g., prevent denial of service. [1]: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSSimpleQueueService/latest/SQSDeveloperGuide/sqs-long-polling.html https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSSimpleQueueService/latest/SQS...

paulddraper 8y ago

Comet is really an underrated technology. Because, it's not a separate technology. It's worked in browsers for years, and is compatible with any HTTP server toolkit/framework that lets you stream a response (so basically all of them). That said....who would use Comet for long polling? You'd use Comet to avoid the difficulties of long polling.

tome 8y ago
How is Comet different from long polling? It's not clear to me. The article only mentions COMET in the context of a Python server, and the Wikipedia page isn't much help https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_(programming) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_(programming)
- paulddraper 8y ago
  It appears my usage is a little different than wikipedia. Apparently "Comet" can mean multiple things. I meant "streaming Comet", which is in my experience what most people mean. Long polling: (1) Request (2) Wait (3) Receive an event. (4) Go back to #1. Streaming Comet: (1) Request (2) Wait (3) Receive an event (4) Go back to #2. Rather than getting a raw response from the server in a request, streaming Comet loads the response in a iframe. The response is streaming HTML and has a series of <script> tags that post events to the parent window. It's arguably easier to manage and scale (no missed events, no need to find the same server again), though it certainly looks a little odd.

majke 8y ago

The title brings nostalgia! For me it all started when Michael Carter worked on orbited, years ago (was it 2008?). Michael made a number of important "discoveries", like the famous document.domain trick: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Security/Same-origin_policy#Changing_origin https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Security/Same-o... Then I played with libevent, trying to create a framework for comet applications. Then redis came along, perfect for backend and Websockets in browsers. Then of course node.js became a popular engine for messaging applications. In the mean time we worked on SockJS, to make the transition from comet to websockets smoother. Oh, all those tricks employed in Sockjs... https://github.com/sockjs/sockjs-client#supported-transports-by-browser-html-served-from-http-or-https https://github.com/sockjs/sockjs-client#supported-transports... There still is a place for things like Opera Eventsource, but it seems websockets over TLS is now the best, stable, and portable way of doing messaging on the web.

jordache 8y ago

In present time, is there an advantage of long polling pattern vs web socket?

napsterbr 8y ago
Just the fact that it's stateless and therefore may result in a simpler application and infrastructure. But I belive that, in this case, the pros of websocket outweigh its cons. That said, I've been working with a middle ground: http 2 + sse. Gives the benefit of simpler infrastructure while not being as inefficient as short/long-polling. ETA: after using websocket for a while, one of the major downsides is that you can't use most of the http ecosystem. Stuff like cloudflare workers, cloudflare anti-ddos[0], swagger api docs, caching etc. I recently switched to http 2 + sse and do not regret. [0] - they do support websockets, but at a limited and undisclosed rate (I.e. You don't know how many is too many until they ask you to upgrade your plan).
nitwit005 8y ago
If you support HTTP2, the long poll requests will generally reuse a connection. Websockets consume a connection, which can result in hitting issues with opening a lot of tabs. There was a proposal to make it compatible with HTTP2, but I don't believe it went anywhere.

derek_frome 8y ago

PubNub is probably the most experienced company in this area. Would be interesting to see them add their experience here.

stephenblum 8y ago
Hi Derek. Thank you for mentioning us here. The age-old conversation on transport protocols is evergreen. The goal of these protocols is to allow data transmission from one device, to other devices. It is great to be on the leading edge of technology, continuing the innovative optimizations of the use of the internet. As the internet scales, more devices need connectivity and each byte counts more and more. There are 20 billion connected internet devices today (2018). That's 2x more than the number of humans. The device to human ratio continues to grow. We need efficient and affective methods for coordinating information between devices. The various methods to coordinate information between devices on the internet should be looked at objectively and mechanically. At the end of the day, the modern reliable messaging protocols use the IP Frames. The basis of our internet. Layer 6 protocols based on IP Frames are not equal. Many methods are not compatible with the various configurations of networks. The bytes and bandwidth required between each production-ready method differ. * HTTP/1.1 - 100% Compatibility * HTTP/2.0 - 100% Compatibility with client initiated connectivity and backward compatibility with HTTP/1 * MQTT - near-full internet wide compatibility ( routing policy / network topology ) * WS - near-full internet wide compatibility ( routing policy / network topology ) Each message received using these mechanisms requires TCP ACKs. The promise of MQTT and WS leads you to believe that the data streaming to your device over WS or MQTT don't require ACKs. However this is not how TCP works. When packets are received there is an associated timeout and retransmission when an ACK is late or missing. Additionally light-weight layer 6 traffic is required to maintain connectivity between two endpoints. Otherwise LRUs and quotas are triggered for routes could be treated as stale, and therefore dropped altogether. This is the underlying mechanism of the layer 6 protocols that are often left out of the discussions. There is a clear winning approach in my mind. HTTP/2.0 includes, by default, server-initiated data push. The required TLS and header compression, as part of the spec, allow for a secure yet efficient streaming solution. With HTTP/2.0, TCP socket limits are less of a concern, as the client only needs one TCP socket to subscribe to an unlimited number of data feeds. HTTP/1 requires the client to maintain separate sockets for each independent stream, as HTTP/1 enforces head-of-line ordering for muxing. Something we've done special for HTTP/1 clients, we've added multiplexing by allowing multiple topic subscriptions and filter expressions to be passed in a single HTTP call on the same socket. This isn't natively built into HTTP/1 and is supported on all our SDKs. This is why we have chosen HTTP/2.0 as our next-gen transport protocol. We have started by providing HTTP/2.0 connectivity at our edge for select customers. As of 2018 PubNub is the world-record holder for the largest online concurrent event in human history using HTTP/2.0 for live data streams on a globally celebrated sporting event. You should be using HTTP/2.0 for your customers. Here is a dockerfile that makes it easy for you to start testing HTTP/2.0 - https://github.com/stephenlb/http2-proxy https://github.com/stephenlb/http2-proxy Stephen Blum ( @stephenlb ) CTO PubNub