5 ms·

>>The point of the law is "attrition through enforcement" It is much more than that. If you're a US citizen and you're not carrying proof of citizenship, you

by credo 16y ago

>>The point of the law is "attrition through enforcement" It is much more than that. If you're a US citizen and you're not carrying proof of citizenship, you could get thrown in jail for not having your "papers". Now, I'm sure many citizens feel that their accent or their skin color or some other attribute protects them from sent to jail and that they don't need to carry their papers with them. However, if a cop thinks that you might be a Canadian, they could throw you in jail for not proving otherwise. .

kjhgfkjmhng 16y ago
Presumably only blacks and native americans are safe?
firemanx 16y ago
Do you have a reference for citizens being able to be sent to jail for not carrying papers? I was under the impression that there was nothing in the bill about putting people in jail. I haven't read the link yet, though, so perhaps it has more details.
- Natsu 16y ago
  Even before this law was passed, I can give you citations for American citizens who have actually been deported. I can't see how this law will make deportation any less likely. Here are some of the first few results: * http://www.care2.com/causes/human-rights/blog/mentally-disabled-u-s-citizen-deported/ http://www.care2.com/causes/human-rights/blog/mentally-disab... * http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/07/report_hundreds_of_us_citizens.html http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/07/report_hundre... You may notice a common trend among those wrongly deported: they're most often mentally disabled and non-white. It makes the news if and when their family discovers what happened to them. You don't have a right to an attorney if accused of immigration violations (even if you are a US citizen). I don't believe that a native-born US citizen can be stripped of their citizenship via any means. However, there are ways for naturalized citizens (those born elsewhere who successfully apply for US citizenship) to be stripped of that citizenship after the fact. This usually happens if they lie on their application (and that is the reason they ask questions like "Are you a terrorist?" on that application). There's a discussion of how that works here: http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/376038 http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/376038
  - firemanx 16y ago
    That's definitely a problem (I knew a few people that I've spent time helping out who would probably run the risk of what those links describe), but according to all of those links, the agency in the wrong is ICE, not any particular state - as far as I know (even with the Arizona law), actual deportation and citizenship issues are still handled at the Federal level. While I don't think that the analysis and worries of "papers please" regarding the Arizona law is wrong (I'm a firm believer in sunlight), I'm not seeing, 6 months in, where the doom and gloom is still coming from. They've revised the laws to remove some of the ambiguities, and I still haven't seen evidence of citizens being throw in jail, nor any onerous requirements on immigrants besides what is defined in Title 9 of the Federal laws. The big argument today, which the Feds are suing for, seems to be that the state law preempts something which is clearly defined at the Federal level (the aforementioned Title 9). I can understand that particular argument, even if I think it's relatively ridiculous to make (the Feds have had a hard time enforcing the law there, especially in border states where the drug war is bringing more and more criminal elements into the area).
    - Natsu 16y ago
      Well, of course we're not likely to see "doom and gloom." Those of us who are reasonably intelligent are in remarkably little danger of deportation. What it will do is overwork ICE, an agency that tries to focus its few resources in deporting dangerous criminals (rather than people who overstayed a visa). Given that ICE is nothing but a cost center as far as politicians are concerned, we can already see what is happening when things are done in a cut-rate manner. This will only continue. Coupled with that is that Arizona's largest county has right now a publicly-elected sheriff (an election I'm inclined to believe should be removed), who for the last decade or so has conducted immigration raids that grabbed headlines during election season. Said sheriff is also currently under federal investigation (he was under investigation long before Obama came to power, incidentally). This is not a good mix. While I can sympathize with those who want ICE to do a better job, or who want our immigration laws enforced, I think that comprehensive reform is needed before those laws will be enforceable.
      - 16y ago
defen 16y ago
> If you're a US citizen and you're not carrying proof of citizenship, you could get thrown in jail for not having your "papers". ...if you are lawfully stopped, detained, or arrested, you may be held until your immigration status is verified. I don't see why this is a big deal. There is no grand scheme to sweep the countryside and round up everyone with brown skin or a Canadian accent.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- kjhgfkjmhng 16y ago
  Good job the police don't have any sort of history of arresting people on spurious charges due to their skin color.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

by credo 16y ago

kjhgfkjmhng 16y ago

Presumably only blacks and native americans are safe?

firemanx 16y ago

Do you have a reference for citizens being able to be sent to jail for not carrying papers? I was under the impression that there was nothing in the bill about putting people in jail. I haven't read the link yet, though, so perhaps it has more details.

Natsu 16y ago
Even before this law was passed, I can give you citations for American citizens who have actually been deported. I can't see how this law will make deportation any less likely. Here are some of the first few results: * http://www.care2.com/causes/human-rights/blog/mentally-disabled-u-s-citizen-deported/ http://www.care2.com/causes/human-rights/blog/mentally-disab... * http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/07/report_hundreds_of_us_citizens.html http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/07/report_hundre... You may notice a common trend among those wrongly deported: they're most often mentally disabled and non-white. It makes the news if and when their family discovers what happened to them. You don't have a right to an attorney if accused of immigration violations (even if you are a US citizen). I don't believe that a native-born US citizen can be stripped of their citizenship via any means. However, there are ways for naturalized citizens (those born elsewhere who successfully apply for US citizenship) to be stripped of that citizenship after the fact. This usually happens if they lie on their application (and that is the reason they ask questions like "Are you a terrorist?" on that application). There's a discussion of how that works here: http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/376038 http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/376038
- firemanx 16y ago
  That's definitely a problem (I knew a few people that I've spent time helping out who would probably run the risk of what those links describe), but according to all of those links, the agency in the wrong is ICE, not any particular state - as far as I know (even with the Arizona law), actual deportation and citizenship issues are still handled at the Federal level. While I don't think that the analysis and worries of "papers please" regarding the Arizona law is wrong (I'm a firm believer in sunlight), I'm not seeing, 6 months in, where the doom and gloom is still coming from. They've revised the laws to remove some of the ambiguities, and I still haven't seen evidence of citizens being throw in jail, nor any onerous requirements on immigrants besides what is defined in Title 9 of the Federal laws. The big argument today, which the Feds are suing for, seems to be that the state law preempts something which is clearly defined at the Federal level (the aforementioned Title 9). I can understand that particular argument, even if I think it's relatively ridiculous to make (the Feds have had a hard time enforcing the law there, especially in border states where the drug war is bringing more and more criminal elements into the area).
  - Natsu 16y ago
    Well, of course we're not likely to see "doom and gloom." Those of us who are reasonably intelligent are in remarkably little danger of deportation. What it will do is overwork ICE, an agency that tries to focus its few resources in deporting dangerous criminals (rather than people who overstayed a visa). Given that ICE is nothing but a cost center as far as politicians are concerned, we can already see what is happening when things are done in a cut-rate manner. This will only continue. Coupled with that is that Arizona's largest county has right now a publicly-elected sheriff (an election I'm inclined to believe should be removed), who for the last decade or so has conducted immigration raids that grabbed headlines during election season. Said sheriff is also currently under federal investigation (he was under investigation long before Obama came to power, incidentally). This is not a good mix. While I can sympathize with those who want ICE to do a better job, or who want our immigration laws enforced, I think that comprehensive reform is needed before those laws will be enforceable.
    - 16y ago

defen 16y ago

> If you're a US citizen and you're not carrying proof of citizenship, you could get thrown in jail for not having your "papers". ...if you are lawfully stopped, detained, or arrested, you may be held until your immigration status is verified. I don't see why this is a big deal. There is no grand scheme to sweep the countryside and round up everyone with brown skin or a Canadian accent.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
kjhgfkjmhng 16y ago
Good job the police don't have any sort of history of arresting people on spurious charges due to their skin color.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]