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I beg to differ. New York City doesn't have a problem attracting jobs. Like not even a little bit. The idea that this is actually incremental revenue for the c

by CPLX 8y ago

I beg to differ. New York City doesn't have a problem attracting jobs. Like not even a little bit. The idea that this is actually incremental revenue for the city is extremely debatable. New York City is a really big place. Midtown is the largest central business district in the country, and Lower Manhattan is the third largest, after Chicago. There are 1,700,000 jobs in Manhattan alone and 3,900,000 in New York City. We're supposed to all bow down before a sixth of a percent change, spread out over 5-10 years? Really? There are single buildings in New York City that employ as many as 25,000 people. Back when the twin towers were around they contained 55,000 employees between them. JP Morgan Chase is putting about 15,000 employees in their new HQ building, without a breathless 13 months of coverage. This shit happens all the time. You could pick any number of random single city blocks in Manhattan with way over 25,000 jobs. Amazon needs New York way more than New York needs Amazon. It's the global center of media, fashion, advertising, finance, and many other categories of Amazon's business. This giveaway is a goddamm travesty. How about instead, Cuomo gives me and any other startup founder who's been in Brooklyn or Queens for decades $48,000 for every job we've created, and we tell Amazon to go fuck themselves.

ng12 8y ago
Seriously. Google owns the fourth largest building in NYC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/111_Eighth_Avenue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/111_Eighth_Avenue
jondubois 8y ago
>> This giveaway is a goddamm travesty. How about instead, Cuomo gives me and any other startup founder who's been in Brooklyn or Queens for decades $48,000 for every job we've created and we tell Amazon to go fuck themselves. So true. The rent in NYC is already very high. What kind of lifestyle can a blue collar worker afford in NYC? Obviously the only winners here are corrupt politicians and greedy Amazon execs. They should all be jailed.
- zaroth 8y ago
  > Obviously the only winners here are corrupt politicians and greedy Amazon execs. They should all be jailed. You can dislike tax incentives if you want to, but the hyperbole is so over the top it becomes radical, divisive, noise. We need less of this in these discussions.
  - giantsloth 8y ago
    This isn’t hyperbole. Corporations are stealing directly from the tax payer via politicians and they should be jailed for it. We need more calls to action for holding these people accountable. No one “dislikes tax incentives” what an absurd straw man ... they don’t like being robbed for the benefit of a small few at the expense of everyone else.
  - jondubois 8y ago
    The division is real and worsening. It's not an imaginary concept that we can choose not to discuss.
    - sokoloff 8y ago
      Discussing can be productive. Calling for a blanket incarceration of legislators and Amazon executives is not.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
asah 8y ago
My god, you're bitter for a startup founder! As a veteran founder myself, I'd be excited: this brings talent to fuel my startup, this brings interactive infrastructure, etc. Amazon and Google are not regular employers: your startup pays outlets in taxes and mooches off infrastructure. The big companies find that with real profits. Finally, $48k/employee is peanuts to a big city startup, and typically that kind of money is available from accelerator/etc programs.
- chiefalchemist 8y ago
  > " this brings talent to fuel my startup," Yes it brings talent. But that doesn't mean such people are startup talent. It's also going to drive up demand for housing (read: the cost of housing). So for those __not__ employed by one of these, the question becomes: how much __startup-centric__ talent are they driving __out__ of your area? Long to short, the market is being manipulated, and it's being manipulated by the government. The gov created the house bubble and the student loan bubble. If there are examples of the gov manipulating the market and that ending well for taxpayers, I'd like to read about it.
- CPLX 8y ago
  We're literally giving New York tax money to the richest man in the world, who lives somewhere else, instead of spending it on the subway, or parks, or schools, or literally anything. If you're not outraged you're not paying attention. As it happens I don't have a Silicon Valley venture backed profitless startup, I have a company that gets paid money to do work and makes a healthy profit. I've paid very considerable taxes in NYC for 20 years. Now, literally, they are handing them to Jeff Bezos in exchange for nothing. That area of LIC would just be something else instead. We don't need these guys to bring "talent" this is literally New York City, a giant magnet that has drawn the most talented people on the planet for at least a hundred years. Cuomo is an obvious crook and has been since conception, and this deal sucks. I see no reason not to point that out.
  - Digital-Citizen 8y ago
    Richard Wolff in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTth4Rb25H4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTth4Rb25H4 does a good job of concisely making the points on just how bad a deal this is for New York and Virginia (which are together funding over half of the costs of this project -- $5.5B versus Amazon's $5B according to the New York Times) -- and all for an estimated 2,500 jobs in New York. Here's what he said: This is a shocking display. What they are calling a government-private partnership is nothing of the sort. It's a public subsidy to Amazon. The New York Times reported $5 billion in this project will be invested by Amazon. $5.5 billion dollars will be invested by New York and Virginia. That is a subsidy of over 50% of the cost of this project. We the taxpayers will be either paying higher taxes to fund this private company, among the richest in the world, or, if we don't get our taxes raised, the government will deliver fewer services to us because it has given this enormous subsidy to a company. $5 billion from Virginia and New York where Mr. Bezos, the owner of Amazon, is himself the owner of $160 billion. He didn't need it, the company doesn't need it. We are being asked to subsidize. All of the profits will go to the private companies and their shareholders. We, the public, will be funding more than half of this project. Shame is what Mr. DeBlasio ought to feel rather than posing in the PR as if he has delivered something. [...] The projected number of jobs in the New York area from this is 2,500. That's a very small number and will have no effect on the unemployment problem of this city [New York City] it's just too small and that's not a surprise [...] because the kind of work Amazon does is highly automated; it uses machines for 90% of what it does. And half of the people it's likely to have working in New York will be brought in from other parts of the Amazon empire.
ep103 8y ago
Cuomo's just looking for new innovative ways to take money out of the MTA budget. The fact that there will be more people trying to ride the 7 train just puts icing on the cake.
Spooky23 8y ago
NYC needs more diversity outside of finance. This potentially puts NYC on top for retail again. I think incentives and payments for this purpose is a meh idea, it if you’re going to do it, bet on a winner.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  Imagine giving $48,000 to 25,000 small business owners over 10 years instead.
  - zjaffee 8y ago
    They already do this, the excelsior tax break among other community development incentives are available to any employer that wants to locate in long island city. Small employers are probably less effective at leveraging these things, but nothing amazon is getting isn't totally open to the public.
  - Spooky23 8y ago
    You can to some extent. The compliance requirements are daunting for many businesses.
- brown9-2 8y ago
  retail of what?
- frutiger 8y ago
  > NYC needs more diversity outside of finance. The beauty of NYC is that it is not singularly focused like SF is. Media, Fashion, Finance, Tech all call NYC their home.
kodablah 8y ago
> How about instead, Cuomo gives me and any other startup founder who's been in Brooklyn or Queens for decades $48,000 for every job we've created, and we tell Amazon to go fuck themselves. Why don't you use your leverage as a job creator to go to a town and get similar benefits since clearly you will bring the same level of benefits to that town? Or do you recognize your lack of mobility and limited investment in your town may result in a less favorable negotiating position. It's like wondering why a used car dealer gave a better deal to someone w/ a better trade in.
woolvalley 8y ago
So if the numbers are so small, why does it matter that this tax deal exists then. I think most of the hate is fueled by emotional anger at the rich due to increasing inequality in the USA, even though this investment in NYC is a positive for it when you look at it rationally.
- airstrike 8y ago
  > why does it matter that this tax deal exists then. He's saying the tax breaks provide create no gain for the city, but he's not disputing they're valuable to Amazon. They're also not valuable to taxpayers, who are being forced to subsidize one company without the opportunity to voice their opinion a priori. Finally, there's the incremental point that countless other entrepreneurs are not enjoying these same benefits. Not the biggest issue with it, but an important one nonetheless.
- shard972 8y ago
  How does it help anybody outside NYC?
  - sokoloff 8y ago
    To what extent should that be a major concern of NY legislators?
weeksie 8y ago
The city wants to develop a new business district in LIC.
seshagiric 8y ago
That's right but may be NYC is trying to avoid becoming another Chicago?
zjaffee 8y ago
This is why HQ2 is in Long Island City though, because that's how economic development programs work. Cities give incentives to minimize the risks involved in locating in a less desirable location. It absolutely would've been smarter for amazon to remain in midtown like they currently are since it would be much easier to recruit from the suburbs many existing tech workers live in, but they would've lost over a billion of the incentive dollars they got in the process.
illumin8 8y ago
This is not a travesty. This is cementing NYC as the place to go on the east coast if you want to work in tech, and helping to diversify the NYC economy away from being so heavily dependent on finance. Wouldn't it be nice if your options for working in tech didn't consist of a handful of large banks and hedge funds?
- brown9-2 8y ago
  What you describe is already the status quo in NYC. Every large tech company is already here and has been.

by CPLX 8y ago

ng12 8y ago

Seriously. Google owns the fourth largest building in NYC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/111_Eighth_Avenue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/111_Eighth_Avenue

jondubois 8y ago

>> This giveaway is a goddamm travesty. How about instead, Cuomo gives me and any other startup founder who's been in Brooklyn or Queens for decades $48,000 for every job we've created and we tell Amazon to go fuck themselves. So true. The rent in NYC is already very high. What kind of lifestyle can a blue collar worker afford in NYC? Obviously the only winners here are corrupt politicians and greedy Amazon execs. They should all be jailed.

zaroth 8y ago
> Obviously the only winners here are corrupt politicians and greedy Amazon execs. They should all be jailed. You can dislike tax incentives if you want to, but the hyperbole is so over the top it becomes radical, divisive, noise. We need less of this in these discussions.
- giantsloth 8y ago
  This isn’t hyperbole. Corporations are stealing directly from the tax payer via politicians and they should be jailed for it. We need more calls to action for holding these people accountable. No one “dislikes tax incentives” what an absurd straw man ... they don’t like being robbed for the benefit of a small few at the expense of everyone else.
- jondubois 8y ago
  The division is real and worsening. It's not an imaginary concept that we can choose not to discuss.
  - sokoloff 8y ago
    Discussing can be productive. Calling for a blanket incarceration of legislators and Amazon executives is not.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

asah 8y ago

My god, you're bitter for a startup founder! As a veteran founder myself, I'd be excited: this brings talent to fuel my startup, this brings interactive infrastructure, etc. Amazon and Google are not regular employers: your startup pays outlets in taxes and mooches off infrastructure. The big companies find that with real profits. Finally, $48k/employee is peanuts to a big city startup, and typically that kind of money is available from accelerator/etc programs.

chiefalchemist 8y ago
> " this brings talent to fuel my startup," Yes it brings talent. But that doesn't mean such people are startup talent. It's also going to drive up demand for housing (read: the cost of housing). So for those __not__ employed by one of these, the question becomes: how much __startup-centric__ talent are they driving __out__ of your area? Long to short, the market is being manipulated, and it's being manipulated by the government. The gov created the house bubble and the student loan bubble. If there are examples of the gov manipulating the market and that ending well for taxpayers, I'd like to read about it.
CPLX 8y ago
We're literally giving New York tax money to the richest man in the world, who lives somewhere else, instead of spending it on the subway, or parks, or schools, or literally anything. If you're not outraged you're not paying attention. As it happens I don't have a Silicon Valley venture backed profitless startup, I have a company that gets paid money to do work and makes a healthy profit. I've paid very considerable taxes in NYC for 20 years. Now, literally, they are handing them to Jeff Bezos in exchange for nothing. That area of LIC would just be something else instead. We don't need these guys to bring "talent" this is literally New York City, a giant magnet that has drawn the most talented people on the planet for at least a hundred years. Cuomo is an obvious crook and has been since conception, and this deal sucks. I see no reason not to point that out.
- Digital-Citizen 8y ago
  Richard Wolff in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTth4Rb25H4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTth4Rb25H4 does a good job of concisely making the points on just how bad a deal this is for New York and Virginia (which are together funding over half of the costs of this project -- $5.5B versus Amazon's $5B according to the New York Times) -- and all for an estimated 2,500 jobs in New York. Here's what he said: This is a shocking display. What they are calling a government-private partnership is nothing of the sort. It's a public subsidy to Amazon. The New York Times reported $5 billion in this project will be invested by Amazon. $5.5 billion dollars will be invested by New York and Virginia. That is a subsidy of over 50% of the cost of this project. We the taxpayers will be either paying higher taxes to fund this private company, among the richest in the world, or, if we don't get our taxes raised, the government will deliver fewer services to us because it has given this enormous subsidy to a company. $5 billion from Virginia and New York where Mr. Bezos, the owner of Amazon, is himself the owner of $160 billion. He didn't need it, the company doesn't need it. We are being asked to subsidize. All of the profits will go to the private companies and their shareholders. We, the public, will be funding more than half of this project. Shame is what Mr. DeBlasio ought to feel rather than posing in the PR as if he has delivered something. [...] The projected number of jobs in the New York area from this is 2,500. That's a very small number and will have no effect on the unemployment problem of this city [New York City] it's just too small and that's not a surprise [...] because the kind of work Amazon does is highly automated; it uses machines for 90% of what it does. And half of the people it's likely to have working in New York will be brought in from other parts of the Amazon empire.

ep103 8y ago

Cuomo's just looking for new innovative ways to take money out of the MTA budget. The fact that there will be more people trying to ride the 7 train just puts icing on the cake.

Spooky23 8y ago

NYC needs more diversity outside of finance. This potentially puts NYC on top for retail again. I think incentives and payments for this purpose is a meh idea, it if you’re going to do it, bet on a winner.

nerdponx 8y ago
Imagine giving $48,000 to 25,000 small business owners over 10 years instead.
- zjaffee 8y ago
  They already do this, the excelsior tax break among other community development incentives are available to any employer that wants to locate in long island city. Small employers are probably less effective at leveraging these things, but nothing amazon is getting isn't totally open to the public.
- Spooky23 8y ago
  You can to some extent. The compliance requirements are daunting for many businesses.
brown9-2 8y ago
retail of what?
frutiger 8y ago
> NYC needs more diversity outside of finance. The beauty of NYC is that it is not singularly focused like SF is. Media, Fashion, Finance, Tech all call NYC their home.

kodablah 8y ago

> How about instead, Cuomo gives me and any other startup founder who's been in Brooklyn or Queens for decades $48,000 for every job we've created, and we tell Amazon to go fuck themselves. Why don't you use your leverage as a job creator to go to a town and get similar benefits since clearly you will bring the same level of benefits to that town? Or do you recognize your lack of mobility and limited investment in your town may result in a less favorable negotiating position. It's like wondering why a used car dealer gave a better deal to someone w/ a better trade in.

woolvalley 8y ago

So if the numbers are so small, why does it matter that this tax deal exists then. I think most of the hate is fueled by emotional anger at the rich due to increasing inequality in the USA, even though this investment in NYC is a positive for it when you look at it rationally.

airstrike 8y ago
> why does it matter that this tax deal exists then. He's saying the tax breaks provide create no gain for the city, but he's not disputing they're valuable to Amazon. They're also not valuable to taxpayers, who are being forced to subsidize one company without the opportunity to voice their opinion a priori. Finally, there's the incremental point that countless other entrepreneurs are not enjoying these same benefits. Not the biggest issue with it, but an important one nonetheless.
shard972 8y ago
How does it help anybody outside NYC?
- sokoloff 8y ago
  To what extent should that be a major concern of NY legislators?

weeksie 8y ago

The city wants to develop a new business district in LIC.

seshagiric 8y ago

That's right but may be NYC is trying to avoid becoming another Chicago?

zjaffee 8y ago

This is why HQ2 is in Long Island City though, because that's how economic development programs work. Cities give incentives to minimize the risks involved in locating in a less desirable location. It absolutely would've been smarter for amazon to remain in midtown like they currently are since it would be much easier to recruit from the suburbs many existing tech workers live in, but they would've lost over a billion of the incentive dollars they got in the process.

illumin8 8y ago

This is not a travesty. This is cementing NYC as the place to go on the east coast if you want to work in tech, and helping to diversify the NYC economy away from being so heavily dependent on finance. Wouldn't it be nice if your options for working in tech didn't consist of a handful of large banks and hedge funds?

brown9-2 8y ago
What you describe is already the status quo in NYC. Every large tech company is already here and has been.