4 ms·

I'd read a little about the problems caused by involuntary commitment. Even a novel like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest or Maria, or the Wrongs of Woman or Wom

I'd read a little about the problems caused by involuntary commitment. Even a novel like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest or Maria, or the Wrongs of Woman or Woman on the Edge of Time might give you a different perspective. I understand where you're coming from, but making it possible for people to get others committed against their will has historically not worked out.

munificent 8y ago
Yes, institutionalization has many problems too, which is one of the things that led to a dramatic increase in homeless populations in the US[1] when many asylums were closed. But throwing mentally ill or addicted people on the street isn't a solution either. There needs to be some more complex system that avoids the ills of both of those. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation
- kazen44 8y ago
  i don't know how this works in the US, but in the netherlands we have an extensive system of mental healthcare (financed through the public healthcare system). This system goes from crib to coffin as far as age brackets go, and is integrated with each other. This system seems to work quite well because it has a lot of different methods of dealing with issues people have. Some people live in semi-independant communal homes and function normally in society, while other are being put in a closed enviroment ("gesloten inrichting"). Most people with mental health issues seem to be able to live relatively normal lives, although they need (some) support from the outside and society in general.
  - wjossey 8y ago
    This is really great to learn about, thank you. It's nothing like that here, primarily because we have such a fragmented system. If one is poor, you will qualify for medicaid, which will vary wildly in terms of quality and access depending on the state in which you live. Even with medicaid, you'll have out of pocket expenses, because of the way our insurance system works in the US. If you are homeless or someone who is working poor, even the smallest co-pay is a barrier. The semi-independent communal home concept is what I generally have in my head as being the right alternative to what we have now, and I'm glad to hear it already has some proof points. Look forward to reading more about it.
    - kazen44 8y ago
      some more information can be found at the dutch website for help (roughly translated)[0]. It is in dutch, but with a bit of google translate you should be able to make out how these "open instellingen" function. (most are aimed at youth and young adults, because the issues seem to be more prelevant there). some more information about how long term healthcare works in the netherlands can be found at [1]. and more info about communal living here [2]. [0] https://www.regelhulp.nl/ik-heb-hulp-nodig/verblijf-in-een-jeugdinstelling https://www.regelhulp.nl/ik-heb-hulp-nodig/verblijf-in-een-j... [1] https://www.regelhulp.nl/ik-heb-hulp-nodig/wet-langdurige-zorg-wlz https://www.regelhulp.nl/ik-heb-hulp-nodig/wet-langdurige-zo... [2] https://www.regelhulp.nl/ik-heb-hulp-nodig/langdurig-verblijf https://www.regelhulp.nl/ik-heb-hulp-nodig/langdurig-verblij...
Kalium 8y ago
You're absolutely right. At the same time, it's worth considering that giving people the freedom to die in the gutter does not seem to be working out as well as might be hoped. So perhaps alternatives might be worth contemplating.
- jpm_sd 8y ago
  Part of living in a free society is the freedom to completely fuck up your life. But I agree that we should be funding housing and medical treatment, not drug wars and incarceration.

munificent 8y ago

Yes, institutionalization has many problems too, which is one of the things that led to a dramatic increase in homeless populations in the US[1] when many asylums were closed. But throwing mentally ill or addicted people on the street isn't a solution either. There needs to be some more complex system that avoids the ills of both of those. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation

kazen44 8y ago
i don't know how this works in the US, but in the netherlands we have an extensive system of mental healthcare (financed through the public healthcare system). This system goes from crib to coffin as far as age brackets go, and is integrated with each other. This system seems to work quite well because it has a lot of different methods of dealing with issues people have. Some people live in semi-independant communal homes and function normally in society, while other are being put in a closed enviroment ("gesloten inrichting"). Most people with mental health issues seem to be able to live relatively normal lives, although they need (some) support from the outside and society in general.
- wjossey 8y ago
  This is really great to learn about, thank you. It's nothing like that here, primarily because we have such a fragmented system. If one is poor, you will qualify for medicaid, which will vary wildly in terms of quality and access depending on the state in which you live. Even with medicaid, you'll have out of pocket expenses, because of the way our insurance system works in the US. If you are homeless or someone who is working poor, even the smallest co-pay is a barrier. The semi-independent communal home concept is what I generally have in my head as being the right alternative to what we have now, and I'm glad to hear it already has some proof points. Look forward to reading more about it.
  - kazen44 8y ago
    some more information can be found at the dutch website for help (roughly translated)[0]. It is in dutch, but with a bit of google translate you should be able to make out how these "open instellingen" function. (most are aimed at youth and young adults, because the issues seem to be more prelevant there). some more information about how long term healthcare works in the netherlands can be found at [1]. and more info about communal living here [2]. [0] https://www.regelhulp.nl/ik-heb-hulp-nodig/verblijf-in-een-jeugdinstelling https://www.regelhulp.nl/ik-heb-hulp-nodig/verblijf-in-een-j... [1] https://www.regelhulp.nl/ik-heb-hulp-nodig/wet-langdurige-zorg-wlz https://www.regelhulp.nl/ik-heb-hulp-nodig/wet-langdurige-zo... [2] https://www.regelhulp.nl/ik-heb-hulp-nodig/langdurig-verblijf https://www.regelhulp.nl/ik-heb-hulp-nodig/langdurig-verblij...

Kalium 8y ago

You're absolutely right. At the same time, it's worth considering that giving people the freedom to die in the gutter does not seem to be working out as well as might be hoped. So perhaps alternatives might be worth contemplating.

jpm_sd 8y ago
Part of living in a free society is the freedom to completely fuck up your life. But I agree that we should be funding housing and medical treatment, not drug wars and incarceration.