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Interesting. Any advantage of using Chrome OS for Web development compared to just any plain Linux distro (e.g. Ubuntu)? Or, even more interesting, compared to

Interesting. Any advantage of using Chrome OS for Web development compared to just any plain Linux distro (e.g. Ubuntu)? Or, even more interesting, compared to MacOS? Because from the video, it feels as if Crostini is a second-class citizen on Chrome OS (all that talk about Linux in a container). Why choose Chrome OS at all?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
pkulak 8y ago
Chrome OS has a better Window manager, better monitor support, better polish in general as a Desktop. Compared to MacOS, I'd say probably just cost.
mav3rick 8y ago
Crostini is a VM solution (the container is in a VM). It's by no means a second class citizen. The Files app for instance shows Linux apps along side your Chrome OS apps. Other integration pieces are in the works. Why choose Chrome OS? It's the only mainstream OS with security at it's forefront and 6 week release cycles. Also, the battery life is amazing and there are a range of devices from low end to the higher end pixelbook. (some of the low end ones may not get Crostini yet). If you want a nice travel device you can get a low end Chromebook. If you want a no hassle internet solution you can get a cheapo Chromebook for your folks. Now if you want a Dev environment you can get a higher end Chromebook as well.
- dman 8y ago
  Support window for older devices is questionable. I own a Generation 1 Pixelbook and it has stopped receiving updates (including security updates). Dropping security updates after a couple of years in fact is worse than other operating systems. Am unsure if users are alerted that their devices will not be updated anymore. Disclaimer: Views expressed are my own and do not represent my employer.
  - mav3rick 8y ago
    Chromebooks have a 5 year support policy. It's not a couple of years.
    - dman 8y ago
      That is worse than other alternatives - PCs and Mac machines.
      - stickfigure 8y ago
        Not if you measure in $/yr of service. Also... you've got to treat a laptop pretty gingerly to have one last more than 5 years. Mine are in pretty rough shape by then.
        dman 8y ago
        On the price front - https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/inspiron-11-3000/spd/inspiron-11-3180-laptop https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/inspiron-11-300... - that is a windows laptop for $180. Do you think a chromebook will have better $/year than that? On the durability front - I guess you dont use thinkpads :)
        kbutler 8y ago
        I picked up one of those for Black Friday last year. Nice little machine, but the 32GB drive is not enough for Windows - Windows update failed within 6 months because of disk full - even with no user data. Way too much hassle I ended up putting Linux on it - faster and could keep it updated. But still quite a bit of hassle. It's sitting in a drawer now. But my old Samsung arm Chromebook XE303C12 still gets used. I do miss the more complete keyboard on the Inspiron, though.
        mav3rick 8y ago
        Good luck with Windows on 32 GB.
pjmlp 8y ago
After watching this session and having seen the focus on making Android apps better citizens shown at Google IO and Android Developer Summit, I got this gut feeling that Chrome OS might actually be where Google is heading to, and not Fuchsia. I don't envision they will keep three development teams doing OSes for the same hardware form factors. Now regarding ChromeOS vs plain GNU/Linux, macOS or Windows, I don't see a value, specifically given the prices of Chromebooks able to have Crostini enabled.
- Latteland 8y ago
  Any or almost any recent Intel based Chromebook with recent kernel does crostini.
- sseth 8y ago
  Or it may be that Chrome OS runs on fuchsia, and the 2nd linux kernel runs side by side for Crostini. But even if it did, this is at least a couple of years away, I think.
zaxcellent 8y ago
(I'm crostini developer) Chrome OS has some natural advantages as an OS e.g. it's always updated and secure, device drivers just work. Chrome OS is also the only desktop OS with Android support maintained by Google. Because Crostini uses Linux containers, more Linux programs can be used in development than MacOS, and any linux distribution that runs under LXD can be used. Chromebooks can also be found in certain places more commonly than macbooks, e.g. at schools or as part of a company's fleet of hardware.
- bhhaskin 8y ago
  That's all well and good, but doesn't answer the question. Why would I use Chrome OS rather than another Linux distro for web development? My Ubuntu instillation is also always updated and secure. Device drivers also just work. The android support sounds great for android development, not web development.
  - ChristianBundy 8y ago
    > Why would I use Chrome OS rather than another Linux distro for web development? You shouldn't. It's in Google's best interest to get people to use their products. It's in your best interest to avoid Google whenever you can.
    - azangru 8y ago
      :-) I love this answer
    - sridca 8y ago
      I see that ditching Google has become a popular past-time here in HN, however avoiding Google is surely not even close to my best interest.
    - Latteland 8y ago
      So you think there is some special Google spying of what you type in bash in chromeos? Ain't happening
- 8y ago
skybrian 8y ago
Didn't watch the video, but partially this is interesting due to cheap hardware. There are a wide variety of Chromebooks available. Also, in a way, running Linux as a "second class citizen" seems like an interesting way to do it since you could experiment more while knowing you'll always have a browser available. Maybe ask the opposite question: what's the advantage of running Linux outside a container, versus inside?
microcolonel 8y ago
Containers are fairly lightweight abstractions on Linux, there is effectively no runtime cost. I use a Chromebook as my mobile work machine (I use full desktop Linux on my workstation at home) because it is disposable, low-risk, and easy to wipe. It takes about 20 seconds for me to destroy all the data on the machine and lend it to somebody with a great deal of confidence, and the Chrome OS part synchronizes on its own. I use Syncthing to sync my mobile desktop Linux configs and a handful of other things. So between those two I can set up any old random Chromebook to work as a workstation in a matter of minutes. If I have a good internet connection, chrome remote desktop makes a good interim solution if I can't wait for Crostini to install. Generally I do most of my productive work in desktop Linux, but Chromebooks are also good consumer machines. The mid to low tier ones are totally usable, have great battery life, and can be bought easily in any developed country except China. The Chromium team has a great track record for security, and having (in a very small way) worked with their security folks, I can tell you that they take the business and community of improving and maintaining Chrome's security very seriously. If you are using an unmodified Chromebook with the most recent stable release of Chrome OS, and not in dev mode, then you can be reasonably sure that it's going to reliably carry out its promise of security.
rb808 8y ago
Cheap, light, low powered/long battery life.
staticassertion 8y ago
I use my Pixelbook for development when I travel. * I didn't have to set it up, install an OS, or anything. It was trivial to get Linux working (one click - hard to beat that) and I can use intellij and all the other stuff I'm used to. * I get Android Apps, which is actually pretty neat - some good video players with touch screen support, for example. A fair number of games work, which is cool. * Touch screen in general is actually awesome, maybe less for development but I find myself touching my screens when I walk away from my Chromebook and go to another computer. I never thought I'd enjoy a touch screen at all and now I want every future device I buy to have one. * Safer than most systems. My dev environment is sequestered to a container, everything else stays in a sandboxed browser - my workflow on my Ubuntu system (main computer) is virtually identical to this already, but ChromeOS is designed for it. Biggest problem is I compile my Rust programs in a docker container in the Linux environment and it brings my computer to a crawl. I can't develop or watch TV while compiling Rust.
rifung 8y ago
Disclaimer I work at Google My own personal reason is that I have never had an ideal experience running Linux on laptops. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy tinkering and it was fun when I was in school, but nowadays I don't have much time so if I want to develop something I don't want my time to be spent fixing technical difficulties. With Chrome OS the main benefit to me is the same as running OS X or Windows: you don't have to worry about your stuff working. I also personally really like Chrome OS for it's simplicity and speed but of course you could say I'm biased. Indeed I like it so much I transferred to work on Chrome OS a couple months ago. Compared with OS X.. that really just depends on your preference. I have nothing bad to say about it and enjoyed using my MBP when I had one. I just like having a really lightweight OS but again that's really subjective and for many people the right answer is OS X! I'm just happy we have the choices now.
- type0 8y ago
  > With Chrome OS the main benefit to me is the same as running OS X or Windows: you don't have to worry about your stuff working. Has not been my experience with either of these three. There are plenty of Linux distros that are miles more stable.
  - rifung 8y ago
    That's fair I should have prefaced by saying I have only used the Pixelbook and my experience on Linux is limited to Ubuntu, Debian, Arch, Mint, and Slack. I've only really used a Thinkpad and MBP for the laptops so of course your experience may differ depending on your hardware. Also when I said things work I didn't mean stability/crashes which I admit do happen. I was referring to hardware (wifi) not working which in my opinion is much more annoying.
  - azangru 8y ago
    Yep, I've heard so many people complain about Windows subsystem for Linux that I am terrified of even touching Windows. It's been mostly a smooth ride on MacOS for me, but there were some minor quirks that I encountered on MacOS that were not even an issue on my Linux machine (an example most vivid in my mind is how the default ssh client broke on High Sierra: https://superuser.com/questions/1279450/ssh-could-not-resolve-hostname-high-sierra https://superuser.com/questions/1279450/ssh-could-not-resolv... or how Docker on MacOS could not resolve ipv6 addresses).
Latteland 8y ago
Yes, security and integration. You can have secure crostini shells that can't infect your main os yet share UI and files. You can integrate data by copying files, cut and paste too, but it's light weight like docker. You can at the same time use the secure chromeos.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

pkulak 8y ago

Chrome OS has a better Window manager, better monitor support, better polish in general as a Desktop. Compared to MacOS, I'd say probably just cost.

mav3rick 8y ago

Crostini is a VM solution (the container is in a VM). It's by no means a second class citizen. The Files app for instance shows Linux apps along side your Chrome OS apps. Other integration pieces are in the works. Why choose Chrome OS? It's the only mainstream OS with security at it's forefront and 6 week release cycles. Also, the battery life is amazing and there are a range of devices from low end to the higher end pixelbook. (some of the low end ones may not get Crostini yet). If you want a nice travel device you can get a low end Chromebook. If you want a no hassle internet solution you can get a cheapo Chromebook for your folks. Now if you want a Dev environment you can get a higher end Chromebook as well.

dman 8y ago
Support window for older devices is questionable. I own a Generation 1 Pixelbook and it has stopped receiving updates (including security updates). Dropping security updates after a couple of years in fact is worse than other operating systems. Am unsure if users are alerted that their devices will not be updated anymore. Disclaimer: Views expressed are my own and do not represent my employer.
- mav3rick 8y ago
  Chromebooks have a 5 year support policy. It's not a couple of years.
  - dman 8y ago
    That is worse than other alternatives - PCs and Mac machines.
    - stickfigure 8y ago
      Not if you measure in $/yr of service. Also... you've got to treat a laptop pretty gingerly to have one last more than 5 years. Mine are in pretty rough shape by then.
      - dman 8y ago
        On the price front - https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/inspiron-11-3000/spd/inspiron-11-3180-laptop https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/inspiron-11-300... - that is a windows laptop for $180. Do you think a chromebook will have better $/year than that? On the durability front - I guess you dont use thinkpads :)
        kbutler 8y ago
        I picked up one of those for Black Friday last year. Nice little machine, but the 32GB drive is not enough for Windows - Windows update failed within 6 months because of disk full - even with no user data. Way too much hassle I ended up putting Linux on it - faster and could keep it updated. But still quite a bit of hassle. It's sitting in a drawer now. But my old Samsung arm Chromebook XE303C12 still gets used. I do miss the more complete keyboard on the Inspiron, though.
        mav3rick 8y ago
        Good luck with Windows on 32 GB.

pjmlp 8y ago

After watching this session and having seen the focus on making Android apps better citizens shown at Google IO and Android Developer Summit, I got this gut feeling that Chrome OS might actually be where Google is heading to, and not Fuchsia. I don't envision they will keep three development teams doing OSes for the same hardware form factors. Now regarding ChromeOS vs plain GNU/Linux, macOS or Windows, I don't see a value, specifically given the prices of Chromebooks able to have Crostini enabled.

Latteland 8y ago
Any or almost any recent Intel based Chromebook with recent kernel does crostini.
sseth 8y ago
Or it may be that Chrome OS runs on fuchsia, and the 2nd linux kernel runs side by side for Crostini. But even if it did, this is at least a couple of years away, I think.

zaxcellent 8y ago

(I'm crostini developer) Chrome OS has some natural advantages as an OS e.g. it's always updated and secure, device drivers just work. Chrome OS is also the only desktop OS with Android support maintained by Google. Because Crostini uses Linux containers, more Linux programs can be used in development than MacOS, and any linux distribution that runs under LXD can be used. Chromebooks can also be found in certain places more commonly than macbooks, e.g. at schools or as part of a company's fleet of hardware.

bhhaskin 8y ago
That's all well and good, but doesn't answer the question. Why would I use Chrome OS rather than another Linux distro for web development? My Ubuntu instillation is also always updated and secure. Device drivers also just work. The android support sounds great for android development, not web development.
- ChristianBundy 8y ago
  > Why would I use Chrome OS rather than another Linux distro for web development? You shouldn't. It's in Google's best interest to get people to use their products. It's in your best interest to avoid Google whenever you can.
  - azangru 8y ago
    :-) I love this answer
  - sridca 8y ago
    I see that ditching Google has become a popular past-time here in HN, however avoiding Google is surely not even close to my best interest.
  - Latteland 8y ago
    So you think there is some special Google spying of what you type in bash in chromeos? Ain't happening
8y ago

skybrian 8y ago

Didn't watch the video, but partially this is interesting due to cheap hardware. There are a wide variety of Chromebooks available. Also, in a way, running Linux as a "second class citizen" seems like an interesting way to do it since you could experiment more while knowing you'll always have a browser available. Maybe ask the opposite question: what's the advantage of running Linux outside a container, versus inside?

microcolonel 8y ago

Containers are fairly lightweight abstractions on Linux, there is effectively no runtime cost. I use a Chromebook as my mobile work machine (I use full desktop Linux on my workstation at home) because it is disposable, low-risk, and easy to wipe. It takes about 20 seconds for me to destroy all the data on the machine and lend it to somebody with a great deal of confidence, and the Chrome OS part synchronizes on its own. I use Syncthing to sync my mobile desktop Linux configs and a handful of other things. So between those two I can set up any old random Chromebook to work as a workstation in a matter of minutes. If I have a good internet connection, chrome remote desktop makes a good interim solution if I can't wait for Crostini to install. Generally I do most of my productive work in desktop Linux, but Chromebooks are also good consumer machines. The mid to low tier ones are totally usable, have great battery life, and can be bought easily in any developed country except China. The Chromium team has a great track record for security, and having (in a very small way) worked with their security folks, I can tell you that they take the business and community of improving and maintaining Chrome's security very seriously. If you are using an unmodified Chromebook with the most recent stable release of Chrome OS, and not in dev mode, then you can be reasonably sure that it's going to reliably carry out its promise of security.

rb808 8y ago

Cheap, light, low powered/long battery life.

staticassertion 8y ago

I use my Pixelbook for development when I travel. * I didn't have to set it up, install an OS, or anything. It was trivial to get Linux working (one click - hard to beat that) and I can use intellij and all the other stuff I'm used to. * I get Android Apps, which is actually pretty neat - some good video players with touch screen support, for example. A fair number of games work, which is cool. * Touch screen in general is actually awesome, maybe less for development but I find myself touching my screens when I walk away from my Chromebook and go to another computer. I never thought I'd enjoy a touch screen at all and now I want every future device I buy to have one. * Safer than most systems. My dev environment is sequestered to a container, everything else stays in a sandboxed browser - my workflow on my Ubuntu system (main computer) is virtually identical to this already, but ChromeOS is designed for it. Biggest problem is I compile my Rust programs in a docker container in the Linux environment and it brings my computer to a crawl. I can't develop or watch TV while compiling Rust.

rifung 8y ago

Disclaimer I work at Google My own personal reason is that I have never had an ideal experience running Linux on laptops. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy tinkering and it was fun when I was in school, but nowadays I don't have much time so if I want to develop something I don't want my time to be spent fixing technical difficulties. With Chrome OS the main benefit to me is the same as running OS X or Windows: you don't have to worry about your stuff working. I also personally really like Chrome OS for it's simplicity and speed but of course you could say I'm biased. Indeed I like it so much I transferred to work on Chrome OS a couple months ago. Compared with OS X.. that really just depends on your preference. I have nothing bad to say about it and enjoyed using my MBP when I had one. I just like having a really lightweight OS but again that's really subjective and for many people the right answer is OS X! I'm just happy we have the choices now.

type0 8y ago
> With Chrome OS the main benefit to me is the same as running OS X or Windows: you don't have to worry about your stuff working. Has not been my experience with either of these three. There are plenty of Linux distros that are miles more stable.
- rifung 8y ago
  That's fair I should have prefaced by saying I have only used the Pixelbook and my experience on Linux is limited to Ubuntu, Debian, Arch, Mint, and Slack. I've only really used a Thinkpad and MBP for the laptops so of course your experience may differ depending on your hardware. Also when I said things work I didn't mean stability/crashes which I admit do happen. I was referring to hardware (wifi) not working which in my opinion is much more annoying.
- azangru 8y ago
  Yep, I've heard so many people complain about Windows subsystem for Linux that I am terrified of even touching Windows. It's been mostly a smooth ride on MacOS for me, but there were some minor quirks that I encountered on MacOS that were not even an issue on my Linux machine (an example most vivid in my mind is how the default ssh client broke on High Sierra: https://superuser.com/questions/1279450/ssh-could-not-resolve-hostname-high-sierra https://superuser.com/questions/1279450/ssh-could-not-resolv... or how Docker on MacOS could not resolve ipv6 addresses).

Latteland 8y ago

Yes, security and integration. You can have secure crostini shells that can't infect your main os yet share UI and files. You can integrate data by copying files, cut and paste too, but it's light weight like docker. You can at the same time use the secure chromeos.