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Also this is a great lesson to the younger generation that seem to be wooed by the Ocasio-Cortezes and Sanders of the world. Unfortunately the world needs a rem

by jimmy1 8y ago

Also this is a great lesson to the younger generation that seem to be wooed by the Ocasio-Cortezes and Sanders of the world. Unfortunately the world needs a reminder every generation or so that socialism doesn't work, it never has worked, and it never will work.

walrus01 8y ago
It's hyperbole to say that Sanders is anywhere near the Venezuelan regime politically. He wants a single payer healthcare system like Canada. It's really hard to convey sarcasm in text, but I'll give it a try: Come and see the socialist dystopia that is modern Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal! It's a modern hellscape!
- yters 8y ago
  People just want free stuff and forget they ultimately pay the bill.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    People just want a system that works, modeled after other systems known to work, instead of horrible brokenness.
    - yters 8y ago
      Could trying to fit a dissimilar country's system to our own result in a broken system?
      - mikeash 8y ago
        It could, but I don't see that as the likely outcome. Dissimilarities with other countries are greatly exaggerated, and government is better at getting things done than many people give it credit for. It is possible that the result would still be broken, but it is certain that the result of doing nothing will still be broken. We can either just keep things broken, learn from what others have done use those lessons to take our best shot at fixing things, or we can completely ignore the hard-won lessons of others and go for an untested and novel approach. Which is most likely to work?
        yters 8y ago
        Maybe first figure out exactly what is broken and why?
        mikeash 8y ago
        Seems to me that this has been pretty thoroughly explored already.
        yters 8y ago
        In that case it would be interesting to see the premise that gets us from "US' healthcare system is horribly broken" to "Canadian healthcare system is a suitable model."
        mikeash 8y ago
        Things like cost per capita and outcomes lead you there pretty naturally. We pay a shitload more and don’t get noticeably better results.
- beginningguava 8y ago
  Sanders and Corbyn from the UK both explicitly praised Venezuela when oil was at $120 a barrel. Sanders even said Venezuela was a place where the american dream can really be realized. When oil dropped and the whole thing fell to pieces they pretended that it never happened
  - WillPostForFood 8y ago
    The Sanders quote was a misattribution, that has been recited so many times that looks properly sourced. Quillette has a properly researched defense of Sanders: https://quillette.com/2018/03/10/sanders-venezuela-meme/ https://quillette.com/2018/03/10/sanders-venezuela-meme/ Corbyn, on the other hand, has explicitly and often praised Venezuela and Chavez. There are plenty of primary sources, e.g., https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/309065744954580992?lang=en https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/309065744954580992?l...
  - yongjik 8y ago
    That doesn't really mean much; Trump fucking praised Kim Jong Un. But nobody says America is going socialist because of that.
FilterSweep 8y ago
Interesting. How do you define a “socialist” country? What countries would you say are “socialist” versus “cartel driven”?
distances 8y ago
Isn't Sanders a proponent of a social democratic system, like the Nordics? These countries are the most successful / least failed states in the world by a multitude of metrics. Comparing social democracies to Venezuela is of course just dishonest.
- FilterSweep 8y ago
  Intentionally dishonest.
  - outbackcoder 8y ago
    But I don't want my taxes raised an order of magnitude to pay for everyone else. I believe in equal opportunity, not equal outcome. Not everyone has to be on a level playing field. That is fake and forced, not natural. Even the poorest American (or anyone short of war-torn countries) has the opportunity to better themselves. It may not be easy or the path may include things that at first seem unnatural, but the paths are there. Case in point in America. I know many, many people who served in the military for the sole reason of a college education. It cost them 4-8 years, but they emerged a veteran with veteran hiring preferences, debt-free, have work experience, life experience, and they are all fine. And no, you don't have to end up in a combat role at all. It's completely avoidable by going into the Air Force or Navy in an administrative role. In the rear with the gear, as it were. Military IT training for those with an IT bent is great training and you get to work on some really interesting stuff. You will never see the front lines as an Air Force IT staffer. This is but one path. For those morally opposed to the military, there are other paths like the Peace Corps, WWOOF, etc. Edited to add: From Winston Churchill: "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." "There is nothing government can give you that it hasn't taken from you in the first place." "The main vice of capitalism is the uneven distribution of prosperity. The main vice of socialism is the even distribution of misery." "You don't make the poor richer by making the rich poorer." "We contend that for a nation to try and tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket trying to lift himself up by the handle." # End Sir Winston Churchill I agree with all his above statements. Even Scandinavia is cutting back on the services they offer because they cannot afford it long term. It's not a panacea. You earn it, you keep it. Full stop. I should not be forced by taxation to fulfill the lives of others. If you are able-bodied, get a job, even if you don't like it. Work your way up the ladder. Don't expect anything from anyone. No one owes you anything other than mutual respect as a human being. Want something? Go earn it.
ivalm 8y ago
Yes, the frozen hell of Norway... I am familiar with it. /s
ulzeraj 8y ago
Talk shit about glorious socialism and get downvoted to hell in HN. But don’t worry. Social democracies are being banished by popular voting from other countries in South America. Venezuela played a big part in this.
dang 8y ago
Please don't take HN threads on tedious ideological tangents. People are here for intellectual curiosity, not to be blasted by ideological megaphones. (Regardless of which politics they're blasting.) We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18451533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18451533 and marked it off-topic. Edit: please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18446684 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18446684 too.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

by jimmy1 8y ago

walrus01 8y ago

It's hyperbole to say that Sanders is anywhere near the Venezuelan regime politically. He wants a single payer healthcare system like Canada. It's really hard to convey sarcasm in text, but I'll give it a try: Come and see the socialist dystopia that is modern Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal! It's a modern hellscape!

yters 8y ago
People just want free stuff and forget they ultimately pay the bill.
- mikeash 8y ago
  People just want a system that works, modeled after other systems known to work, instead of horrible brokenness.
  - yters 8y ago
    Could trying to fit a dissimilar country's system to our own result in a broken system?
    - mikeash 8y ago
      It could, but I don't see that as the likely outcome. Dissimilarities with other countries are greatly exaggerated, and government is better at getting things done than many people give it credit for. It is possible that the result would still be broken, but it is certain that the result of doing nothing will still be broken. We can either just keep things broken, learn from what others have done use those lessons to take our best shot at fixing things, or we can completely ignore the hard-won lessons of others and go for an untested and novel approach. Which is most likely to work?
      - yters 8y ago
        Maybe first figure out exactly what is broken and why?
        mikeash 8y ago
        Seems to me that this has been pretty thoroughly explored already.
        yters 8y ago
        In that case it would be interesting to see the premise that gets us from "US' healthcare system is horribly broken" to "Canadian healthcare system is a suitable model."
        mikeash 8y ago
        Things like cost per capita and outcomes lead you there pretty naturally. We pay a shitload more and don’t get noticeably better results.
beginningguava 8y ago
Sanders and Corbyn from the UK both explicitly praised Venezuela when oil was at $120 a barrel. Sanders even said Venezuela was a place where the american dream can really be realized. When oil dropped and the whole thing fell to pieces they pretended that it never happened
- WillPostForFood 8y ago
  The Sanders quote was a misattribution, that has been recited so many times that looks properly sourced. Quillette has a properly researched defense of Sanders: https://quillette.com/2018/03/10/sanders-venezuela-meme/ https://quillette.com/2018/03/10/sanders-venezuela-meme/ Corbyn, on the other hand, has explicitly and often praised Venezuela and Chavez. There are plenty of primary sources, e.g., https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/309065744954580992?lang=en https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/309065744954580992?l...
- yongjik 8y ago
  That doesn't really mean much; Trump fucking praised Kim Jong Un. But nobody says America is going socialist because of that.

FilterSweep 8y ago

Interesting. How do you define a “socialist” country? What countries would you say are “socialist” versus “cartel driven”?

distances 8y ago

Isn't Sanders a proponent of a social democratic system, like the Nordics? These countries are the most successful / least failed states in the world by a multitude of metrics. Comparing social democracies to Venezuela is of course just dishonest.

FilterSweep 8y ago
Intentionally dishonest.
- outbackcoder 8y ago
  But I don't want my taxes raised an order of magnitude to pay for everyone else. I believe in equal opportunity, not equal outcome. Not everyone has to be on a level playing field. That is fake and forced, not natural. Even the poorest American (or anyone short of war-torn countries) has the opportunity to better themselves. It may not be easy or the path may include things that at first seem unnatural, but the paths are there. Case in point in America. I know many, many people who served in the military for the sole reason of a college education. It cost them 4-8 years, but they emerged a veteran with veteran hiring preferences, debt-free, have work experience, life experience, and they are all fine. And no, you don't have to end up in a combat role at all. It's completely avoidable by going into the Air Force or Navy in an administrative role. In the rear with the gear, as it were. Military IT training for those with an IT bent is great training and you get to work on some really interesting stuff. You will never see the front lines as an Air Force IT staffer. This is but one path. For those morally opposed to the military, there are other paths like the Peace Corps, WWOOF, etc. Edited to add: From Winston Churchill: "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." "There is nothing government can give you that it hasn't taken from you in the first place." "The main vice of capitalism is the uneven distribution of prosperity. The main vice of socialism is the even distribution of misery." "You don't make the poor richer by making the rich poorer." "We contend that for a nation to try and tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket trying to lift himself up by the handle." # End Sir Winston Churchill I agree with all his above statements. Even Scandinavia is cutting back on the services they offer because they cannot afford it long term. It's not a panacea. You earn it, you keep it. Full stop. I should not be forced by taxation to fulfill the lives of others. If you are able-bodied, get a job, even if you don't like it. Work your way up the ladder. Don't expect anything from anyone. No one owes you anything other than mutual respect as a human being. Want something? Go earn it.

ivalm 8y ago

Yes, the frozen hell of Norway... I am familiar with it. /s

ulzeraj 8y ago

Talk shit about glorious socialism and get downvoted to hell in HN. But don’t worry. Social democracies are being banished by popular voting from other countries in South America. Venezuela played a big part in this.

dang 8y ago

Please don't take HN threads on tedious ideological tangents. People are here for intellectual curiosity, not to be blasted by ideological megaphones. (Regardless of which politics they're blasting.) We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18451533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18451533 and marked it off-topic. Edit: please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18446684 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18446684 too.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]