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China is full of extremely bright, hardworking people. It is not a nation of brain-washed automatons. I think AI alignment is some of the most important work in

by wycs 8y ago

China is full of extremely bright, hardworking people. It is not a nation of brain-washed automatons. I think AI alignment is some of the most important work in the world, and I think spreading and translating AI alignment research in China, such as Stuart Russell's work, may well be more important than direct AI-safety research. Because of their huge population and much higher average quantitative ability among Han Chinese, China has roughly 20 times the number of people capable of AI research, at least if you trust their PISA scores. Should we get human-level AI, there is a good chance it will be made in China. As I don't think the Chinese are a nation of heartless automatons, I think spreading alignment ideas in China is not at all a hopeless task.

ng12 8y ago
It doesn't matter what the Chinese people are like, it matters what the Chinese government is like. If AI comes out of China the Chinese government will have complete control over it, and that is a very bad thing.
- dis-sys 8y ago
  > it matters what the Chinese government is like that is just a cheap excuse repeatedly used in almost all high tech areas - 1. because the Chinese government is bad, China is not allowed to join projects like the international space station. 2. because the Chinese government is bad, allowing China to have access to any semiconductor techs from the west is not acceptable. 3. because the Chinese government is bad, exporting nuclear power station tech to China is now banned. 4. because the Chinese government is bad, Huawei's phones are banned, ZTE was not allowed to buy any US made parts. 5. because the Chinese government is bad, Alipay's acquisition of MoneyGram was banned. 6. because the Chinese government is bad, Chinese universities working on China's weapon programs are banned from buying DELL desktop computers. when US banned exporting any high tech product to China, what to do when there is a trade imbalance? get Trump into the whitehouse, cry hard for the unfairness in trade! give me a break, please come back with some better excuses.
  - ng12 8y ago
    I'm not sure what your contention is. Do you not believe the Chinese government to be corrupt, authoritarian, and/or oppressive? I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that free societies should not economically support oppressive ones.
    - yourbandsucks 8y ago
      Compared to whom? We imprison more of our own people than them and we wage war all over the world, but people don't see it in their daily life so it's just background noise. Maybe the basis should be cooperation and understanding rather than demonization and fear.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      > I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that free societies should not economically support oppressive ones. That is a great idea. Except it's not really what's at play here. If it were, then the US would ban all imports from China, and not just ones where it feels it needs to maintain a strategic advantage. It would also stop supporting Saudis. I believe what GP is trying to communicate is that US struggle against Chinese government for maintaining top superpower status, thinly veiled as concern for human rights, is unnecessarily hurting Chinese people.
    - echevil 8y ago
      > Do you not believe the Chinese government to be corrupt, authoritarian, and/or oppressive? I believe it's way too harmful to simply categorize government into "free" vs "bad/corrupt/authoritarian/oppressive". There're a large number of other factors to consider. I agree Chinese government has tons of problems, just like US government has tons of problems of its own, just different. At the bottom line, Chinese government is making tons of efforts to improve the economy of the country and improve the life of all the citizens. "According to the World Bank, more than 500 million people were lifted out of extreme poverty as China's poverty rate fell from 88 percent in 1981 to 6.5 percent in 2012, as measured by the percentage of people living on the equivalent of US$1.90 or less per day in 2011 purchasing price parity terms." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China > Do you not believe the Chinese government to be corrupt, authoritarian, and/or oppressive? I agree there're corruption in Chinese government. Anti-corruption is a one of the main focus of Chinese government in the past few years. Moreover, corruption has nothing to do with 'freedom' vs 'non-freedom'. There are way too many heavily corrupted democratic government in the world. Is it authoritarian? Yes there is only one party in power - the CPC. The party has close to 100 million members throughout the country, which is close to 1/10 of the entire population. You can't possibly consider a party like that to be a single entity. There's also semi-democratic process: People elect representatives and they form National People's Congress - highest organ of state power in China. Is it oppressive? Well, media censorship is a thing, and if you had to go on the street and protest the government in the same way you'd protest Trump, the government might invite you to "have a talk". But people still talk shit about the government all the time in private and on social media. The comments are likely to get deleted / banned. That sucks, but it is not something that could hugely impact the quality of life of regular citizens. You can still hear lots of dissident voices on the internet, and the government would often respond to that in positive ways.
jbob2000 8y ago
I highly doubt your conclusion. You know what happens to smart Chinese people? They leave China. The comforts of capitalism and the cultural gravity of the West is too strong to overcome. They still don't even use toilets in much of the country and you're claiming they're going to invent AI, come on. Don't get me wrong. They are not a nation of automatons, I am not calling them dumb or inferior. Just be real. They are making social progress, but they're still very far behind, and that pushes a lot of smart people out.
- kwizzt 8y ago
  Can you show me some sources for the claim that 'Chinese people do not using toilets in much of the country'? For all I know, it's the Indians and some Middle East countries that prefer water over toilet paper.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - jbob2000 8y ago
    Sources? Have you been to China? It's only in some major cities that places have toilets, otherwise you use a hole in the ground!
    - kwizzt 8y ago
      Yes I have been to China, as I was born and raised in China. I've been to small villages, towns and large cities. I would say that very few places are actually not using toilets like the some places in north-western/south-western part of China. However, the majority of the Chinese people live in other parts along the coast and major water bodies. I remember when I was very little, so at least 20 years ago, there were no toilets in the village I was born in. It has not remained that case since then. I would say your information is pretty stale.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- 8y ago
pentae 8y ago
Just curious what your background experience is that causes you to take this stance that they are not all brain-washed automatons? Is this based on Mainland Chinese you've met in the US? Or in Mainland China?
- yourbandsucks 8y ago
  It's probably based on the fact that they're human beings. Since when does progressivism mean "try to understand and respect other cultures, except the Chinese, fuck them"? When did that last part get added?
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    When the Soviet Union collapsed and China became the last political power playing on the same level as the US. You'd think that after all the recorded historical examples of populations being duped into believing some other group of people is subhuman - countless cases since the Ancient Rome to the XX century, all of them discussed on history lessons in western schools - you'd think people would be less willing to accept another round of the same propaganda classifying a whole society as inferior. It's sad that we still can't avoid that trap. I've been to China and met Chinese people. They're normal. People, like everyone else, with problems like everyone else, with dreams and fears and passions, like everyone else.
    - yourbandsucks 8y ago
      The thing that's crazy, though, is the "liberals" are leading the red scare / nationalist charge here.
malmsteen 8y ago
>> China is full of extremely bright, hardworking people. It is not a nation of brain-washed automatons Thats a ridiculous argument: they are 1.5MM, im pretty sure you can find a few milions smart enough who fit the description of the parent comment. Its not racist or whatnot.. every nation has its smart fanatics
landryraccoon 8y ago
> “These kids are all exceptionally bright, but being bright is not enough,” said a BIT professor who was involved in the screening process but asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of the subject. > “We are looking for other qualities such as creative thinking, willingness to fight, a persistence when facing challenges,” he said. “A passion for developing new weapons is a must … and they must also be patriots.” I think it's fair to say the students they are recruiting can't have any misgivings about the fact that their projects will have military applications.

by wycs 8y ago

ng12 8y ago

It doesn't matter what the Chinese people are like, it matters what the Chinese government is like. If AI comes out of China the Chinese government will have complete control over it, and that is a very bad thing.

dis-sys 8y ago
> it matters what the Chinese government is like that is just a cheap excuse repeatedly used in almost all high tech areas - 1. because the Chinese government is bad, China is not allowed to join projects like the international space station. 2. because the Chinese government is bad, allowing China to have access to any semiconductor techs from the west is not acceptable. 3. because the Chinese government is bad, exporting nuclear power station tech to China is now banned. 4. because the Chinese government is bad, Huawei's phones are banned, ZTE was not allowed to buy any US made parts. 5. because the Chinese government is bad, Alipay's acquisition of MoneyGram was banned. 6. because the Chinese government is bad, Chinese universities working on China's weapon programs are banned from buying DELL desktop computers. when US banned exporting any high tech product to China, what to do when there is a trade imbalance? get Trump into the whitehouse, cry hard for the unfairness in trade! give me a break, please come back with some better excuses.
- ng12 8y ago
  I'm not sure what your contention is. Do you not believe the Chinese government to be corrupt, authoritarian, and/or oppressive? I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that free societies should not economically support oppressive ones.
  - yourbandsucks 8y ago
    Compared to whom? We imprison more of our own people than them and we wage war all over the world, but people don't see it in their daily life so it's just background noise. Maybe the basis should be cooperation and understanding rather than demonization and fear.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    > I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that free societies should not economically support oppressive ones. That is a great idea. Except it's not really what's at play here. If it were, then the US would ban all imports from China, and not just ones where it feels it needs to maintain a strategic advantage. It would also stop supporting Saudis. I believe what GP is trying to communicate is that US struggle against Chinese government for maintaining top superpower status, thinly veiled as concern for human rights, is unnecessarily hurting Chinese people.
  - echevil 8y ago
    > Do you not believe the Chinese government to be corrupt, authoritarian, and/or oppressive? I believe it's way too harmful to simply categorize government into "free" vs "bad/corrupt/authoritarian/oppressive". There're a large number of other factors to consider. I agree Chinese government has tons of problems, just like US government has tons of problems of its own, just different. At the bottom line, Chinese government is making tons of efforts to improve the economy of the country and improve the life of all the citizens. "According to the World Bank, more than 500 million people were lifted out of extreme poverty as China's poverty rate fell from 88 percent in 1981 to 6.5 percent in 2012, as measured by the percentage of people living on the equivalent of US$1.90 or less per day in 2011 purchasing price parity terms." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China > Do you not believe the Chinese government to be corrupt, authoritarian, and/or oppressive? I agree there're corruption in Chinese government. Anti-corruption is a one of the main focus of Chinese government in the past few years. Moreover, corruption has nothing to do with 'freedom' vs 'non-freedom'. There are way too many heavily corrupted democratic government in the world. Is it authoritarian? Yes there is only one party in power - the CPC. The party has close to 100 million members throughout the country, which is close to 1/10 of the entire population. You can't possibly consider a party like that to be a single entity. There's also semi-democratic process: People elect representatives and they form National People's Congress - highest organ of state power in China. Is it oppressive? Well, media censorship is a thing, and if you had to go on the street and protest the government in the same way you'd protest Trump, the government might invite you to "have a talk". But people still talk shit about the government all the time in private and on social media. The comments are likely to get deleted / banned. That sucks, but it is not something that could hugely impact the quality of life of regular citizens. You can still hear lots of dissident voices on the internet, and the government would often respond to that in positive ways.

jbob2000 8y ago

I highly doubt your conclusion. You know what happens to smart Chinese people? They leave China. The comforts of capitalism and the cultural gravity of the West is too strong to overcome. They still don't even use toilets in much of the country and you're claiming they're going to invent AI, come on. Don't get me wrong. They are not a nation of automatons, I am not calling them dumb or inferior. Just be real. They are making social progress, but they're still very far behind, and that pushes a lot of smart people out.

kwizzt 8y ago
Can you show me some sources for the claim that 'Chinese people do not using toilets in much of the country'? For all I know, it's the Indians and some Middle East countries that prefer water over toilet paper.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- jbob2000 8y ago
  Sources? Have you been to China? It's only in some major cities that places have toilets, otherwise you use a hole in the ground!
  - kwizzt 8y ago
    Yes I have been to China, as I was born and raised in China. I've been to small villages, towns and large cities. I would say that very few places are actually not using toilets like the some places in north-western/south-western part of China. However, the majority of the Chinese people live in other parts along the coast and major water bodies. I remember when I was very little, so at least 20 years ago, there were no toilets in the village I was born in. It has not remained that case since then. I would say your information is pretty stale.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
8y ago

pentae 8y ago

Just curious what your background experience is that causes you to take this stance that they are not all brain-washed automatons? Is this based on Mainland Chinese you've met in the US? Or in Mainland China?

yourbandsucks 8y ago
It's probably based on the fact that they're human beings. Since when does progressivism mean "try to understand and respect other cultures, except the Chinese, fuck them"? When did that last part get added?
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  When the Soviet Union collapsed and China became the last political power playing on the same level as the US. You'd think that after all the recorded historical examples of populations being duped into believing some other group of people is subhuman - countless cases since the Ancient Rome to the XX century, all of them discussed on history lessons in western schools - you'd think people would be less willing to accept another round of the same propaganda classifying a whole society as inferior. It's sad that we still can't avoid that trap. I've been to China and met Chinese people. They're normal. People, like everyone else, with problems like everyone else, with dreams and fears and passions, like everyone else.
  - yourbandsucks 8y ago
    The thing that's crazy, though, is the "liberals" are leading the red scare / nationalist charge here.

malmsteen 8y ago

>> China is full of extremely bright, hardworking people. It is not a nation of brain-washed automatons Thats a ridiculous argument: they are 1.5MM, im pretty sure you can find a few milions smart enough who fit the description of the parent comment. Its not racist or whatnot.. every nation has its smart fanatics

landryraccoon 8y ago

> “These kids are all exceptionally bright, but being bright is not enough,” said a BIT professor who was involved in the screening process but asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of the subject. > “We are looking for other qualities such as creative thinking, willingness to fight, a persistence when facing challenges,” he said. “A passion for developing new weapons is a must … and they must also be patriots.” I think it's fair to say the students they are recruiting can't have any misgivings about the fact that their projects will have military applications.