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> "this is the kind of evasive, hand-wavey crap that I'm talking about." It's evasive and hand-wavey because you don't know what an economics term means and di

> "this is the kind of evasive, hand-wavey crap that I'm talking about." It's evasive and hand-wavey because you don't know what an economics term means and didn't take 30 seconds to look it up on google or wikipedia? I expect better from everyone on HN. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_goods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_goods Something is a private good if: - it can be distributed individually (that is, you can allow only those who've paid for it or registered for it to use it) - its use/consumption by one party precludes its use by another party Roadways can probably be categorized as a "club good" -- they can be used by multiple people, but it's possible to make them available only to "paying customers". Toll roads are a club good for those who pay the toll, while other roads are a club good for all registered/licensed motorists. To be a truly "public good" it needs to be impossible to exclude non-payers; things like clean air or military protection are public goods. Externalities are not goods; they are costs or benefits associated with goods but incurred by outside parties.

jbooth 16y ago
Of course I know what the term means. The point is that the term is mushy enough to be meaningless in all but the most trivial of applications. Nobody thinks the government should be competing with Sam's club in the retail breakfast cereal market. If something's being debated, it's almost by definition in the gray area. "I don't think the government should produce private goods" means effectively nothing.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  Dude, just apply the definition. No honest person is debating that SS/medicare are private goods, they are only debating whether the government should pay for them anyway. Just to avoid being accused of handwaving, I'll write out the obvious reasoning explicitly. Medicare: Rivalrous (the same dollar can't reimburse the doctor for your benefits and mine) and excludible (if you don't pay, they don't reimburse the doctor). Private good. SS: Rivalrous (you and I can't both spend an SS check) and excludible (if you don't pay in while young, they don't send you a check when you are old). Private good. Should I do the same thing for cheese fries or can you figure out for yourself that cheese fries are also a private good?
  - hugh3 16y ago
    I agree with you, but I'm gonna argue the other side right now since I see an objection to that particular line of argument. Suppose I now say that welfare is a public good since without it we'd have poor folks either rioting or dying in the streets. I benefit from that and so do you. Another line-blurring example: food in prison is a private good in that only one prisoner can eat it; however I don't have a problem with the government paying for that.
    - lotharbot 16y ago
      One could argue that welfare benefits the public, but that is not the same as saying welfare checks are public goods. It's a technical term that doesn't say anything about the external benefits to the public. Welfare checks are private goods, because if the funds go into one person's check the same funds can't also go into another person's check (rivalrous) and the checks can be sent to some people but not others (excludable). Food and clothing for prisoners or for military personnel are also private goods, though they're better categorized as components of the public goods of "functional criminal justice system" and "military protection".
      - hugh3 16y ago
        So we appear to be in blurry-definitionland. Meals for prisoners are private goods which are part of the public good "functional criminal justice system". Welfare checks for unemployed bums are private goods which are part of the public good "no dead hobos on lawns".
        lotharbot 16y ago
        "no dead hobos on lawns" is not a good, it's a service. Various goods might contribute to that service, such as "homeless shelters" and "welfare checks". I suppose "functional criminal justice system" is actually a service, as well, while "prison" is a good.
        deleted 16y ago
smokeyj 16y ago
"- its use/consumption by one party precludes its use by another party" I'm glad you don't view intellectual property as legitimate property.
- lotharbot 16y ago
  I don't view intellectual property as private goods; it doesn't meet the definition. I said nothing about its legitimacy as property, nor do I intend to, as that's not the topic at hand. Please do not drag the discussion off topic by twisting the definition given into something it's not.

jbooth 16y ago

Of course I know what the term means. The point is that the term is mushy enough to be meaningless in all but the most trivial of applications. Nobody thinks the government should be competing with Sam's club in the retail breakfast cereal market. If something's being debated, it's almost by definition in the gray area. "I don't think the government should produce private goods" means effectively nothing.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
Dude, just apply the definition. No honest person is debating that SS/medicare are private goods, they are only debating whether the government should pay for them anyway. Just to avoid being accused of handwaving, I'll write out the obvious reasoning explicitly. Medicare: Rivalrous (the same dollar can't reimburse the doctor for your benefits and mine) and excludible (if you don't pay, they don't reimburse the doctor). Private good. SS: Rivalrous (you and I can't both spend an SS check) and excludible (if you don't pay in while young, they don't send you a check when you are old). Private good. Should I do the same thing for cheese fries or can you figure out for yourself that cheese fries are also a private good?
- hugh3 16y ago
  I agree with you, but I'm gonna argue the other side right now since I see an objection to that particular line of argument. Suppose I now say that welfare is a public good since without it we'd have poor folks either rioting or dying in the streets. I benefit from that and so do you. Another line-blurring example: food in prison is a private good in that only one prisoner can eat it; however I don't have a problem with the government paying for that.
  - lotharbot 16y ago
    One could argue that welfare benefits the public, but that is not the same as saying welfare checks are public goods. It's a technical term that doesn't say anything about the external benefits to the public. Welfare checks are private goods, because if the funds go into one person's check the same funds can't also go into another person's check (rivalrous) and the checks can be sent to some people but not others (excludable). Food and clothing for prisoners or for military personnel are also private goods, though they're better categorized as components of the public goods of "functional criminal justice system" and "military protection".
    - hugh3 16y ago
      So we appear to be in blurry-definitionland. Meals for prisoners are private goods which are part of the public good "functional criminal justice system". Welfare checks for unemployed bums are private goods which are part of the public good "no dead hobos on lawns".
      - lotharbot 16y ago
        "no dead hobos on lawns" is not a good, it's a service. Various goods might contribute to that service, such as "homeless shelters" and "welfare checks". I suppose "functional criminal justice system" is actually a service, as well, while "prison" is a good.
        deleted 16y ago

smokeyj 16y ago

"- its use/consumption by one party precludes its use by another party" I'm glad you don't view intellectual property as legitimate property.

lotharbot 16y ago
I don't view intellectual property as private goods; it doesn't meet the definition. I said nothing about its legitimacy as property, nor do I intend to, as that's not the topic at hand. Please do not drag the discussion off topic by twisting the definition given into something it's not.