5 ms·

If you read the report, you'll find motorcyclists are more likely than car drivers to speed, drive drunk, and do both at the same time. And they frequently don'

If you read the report, you'll find motorcyclists are more likely than car drivers to speed, drive drunk, and do both at the same time. And they frequently don't wear helmets. There's no way to make motorcycling as safe as driving, but last time I did the math I found you can recover almost an entire order of magnitude just by obeying the law and wearing a full face helmet. And there's plenty more you can do from there -- take an MSF course, avoid congested areas during your first year on two wheels, and get a modern bike with ABS. Statistically speaking, the benefits of all these things are compounding.

Swizec 8y ago
According to my recent MSF course somewhere around 60% of motorcycle fatalities and serious injuries are self inflicted. Some 40% involve more than 0 alcohol. Nothing made me feel safer on my new motorcycle than learning that stat. Don’t do dumb shit and your personal danger per mile can be quite okay. Also you’re most likely to die in your first and your third year. Then the probability drops off a cliff.
- wingerlang 8y ago
  First and third? What about the second
  - Swizec 8y ago
    Lower chance than first and third. First year you’re a newb and likely to make mistakes. Third year you get confident and sloppy and likely to make mistakes. Most common way to die is running off the road when going too fast into a corner. Followed by being too aggressive in intersections and failing to avoid other people making mistakes or not seeing you. If a car forces right of way and you could’ve stopped but didn’t, it’s your fault. Even tho legally it’s their fault but you’re the one with less crumple zones so you gotta drive defensively.
  - sowbug 8y ago
    Likely the same effect as airplane pilots, where the 100th through 250th flight hours of your career are the most dangerous. Stage 1: unskilled, unaware => die Stage 2: unskilled, aware => not die Stage 3: unskilled, confident => die Stage 4: skilled => live Difference is that certificated flight instructors won't let you solo until you're well into Stage 2. But any noob squid with a credit card can ride off a lot with a liter-class bike, no questions asked.
    - computerex 8y ago
      Does this to private pilots?
      - sowbug 8y ago
        I think you meant to include "apply" somewhere in there. If so, then yes. I don't know anything about military flight training, but except for that I believe every pilot starts out as a private pilot.
  - edoo 8y ago
    I thought it was mileage not years. First 2k miles are second most dangerous. Next 2k miles are most dangerous because you get comfortable enough to make mistakes.
Retric 8y ago
That can only get you close to the ‘average’ car driver. The equivalent cautious driver is significantly ahead of that mark. PS: 72.34 deaths per 100,000 per year means the average lifetime motorcycle rider has a ~4% chance of a fatal accident. Which is approximately the same death risk of a first time suicide attempt. Regular riders are even worse off.
- freerobby 8y ago
  Definitely! I don't mean to downplay the inherent dangers of motorcycling. My point is simply that motorcyclists, as a whole, skew less cautious than drivers do. So e.g. a rider who never drinks and drives makes up more statistical safety ground than a driver who never drinks and drives. I suspect that in the US, the lack of caution in bike culture is exacerbated by how relaxed our laws and regulations are (I've looked for data on this, but I haven't found great cross-country comparisons). We just don't impose on bikers in the same way we do on drivers. For example, we mandated ABS on all new cars nearly two decades ago, but we still don't require it on new bikes. In fact, even in the US, I suspect riders have European laws to thank for the safety features on their bikes. It can't be a coincidence that, for example, Zero Motorcycles began installing ABS with their model year 2015 bikes -- just in time for the EU law that went into effect in 2016.
  - Retric 8y ago
    They also drive a lot less. They are 0.7 percent of all miles driven in the US, but 14 percent of all fatal accidents. You personally can decrease the risks, but not enough to adjust for the 35x per mile risk and make them safe to daily drive.

Swizec 8y ago

According to my recent MSF course somewhere around 60% of motorcycle fatalities and serious injuries are self inflicted. Some 40% involve more than 0 alcohol. Nothing made me feel safer on my new motorcycle than learning that stat. Don’t do dumb shit and your personal danger per mile can be quite okay. Also you’re most likely to die in your first and your third year. Then the probability drops off a cliff.

wingerlang 8y ago
First and third? What about the second
- Swizec 8y ago
  Lower chance than first and third. First year you’re a newb and likely to make mistakes. Third year you get confident and sloppy and likely to make mistakes. Most common way to die is running off the road when going too fast into a corner. Followed by being too aggressive in intersections and failing to avoid other people making mistakes or not seeing you. If a car forces right of way and you could’ve stopped but didn’t, it’s your fault. Even tho legally it’s their fault but you’re the one with less crumple zones so you gotta drive defensively.
- sowbug 8y ago
  Likely the same effect as airplane pilots, where the 100th through 250th flight hours of your career are the most dangerous. Stage 1: unskilled, unaware => die Stage 2: unskilled, aware => not die Stage 3: unskilled, confident => die Stage 4: skilled => live Difference is that certificated flight instructors won't let you solo until you're well into Stage 2. But any noob squid with a credit card can ride off a lot with a liter-class bike, no questions asked.
  - computerex 8y ago
    Does this to private pilots?
    - sowbug 8y ago
      I think you meant to include "apply" somewhere in there. If so, then yes. I don't know anything about military flight training, but except for that I believe every pilot starts out as a private pilot.
- edoo 8y ago
  I thought it was mileage not years. First 2k miles are second most dangerous. Next 2k miles are most dangerous because you get comfortable enough to make mistakes.

Retric 8y ago

That can only get you close to the ‘average’ car driver. The equivalent cautious driver is significantly ahead of that mark. PS: 72.34 deaths per 100,000 per year means the average lifetime motorcycle rider has a ~4% chance of a fatal accident. Which is approximately the same death risk of a first time suicide attempt. Regular riders are even worse off.

freerobby 8y ago
Definitely! I don't mean to downplay the inherent dangers of motorcycling. My point is simply that motorcyclists, as a whole, skew less cautious than drivers do. So e.g. a rider who never drinks and drives makes up more statistical safety ground than a driver who never drinks and drives. I suspect that in the US, the lack of caution in bike culture is exacerbated by how relaxed our laws and regulations are (I've looked for data on this, but I haven't found great cross-country comparisons). We just don't impose on bikers in the same way we do on drivers. For example, we mandated ABS on all new cars nearly two decades ago, but we still don't require it on new bikes. In fact, even in the US, I suspect riders have European laws to thank for the safety features on their bikes. It can't be a coincidence that, for example, Zero Motorcycles began installing ABS with their model year 2015 bikes -- just in time for the EU law that went into effect in 2016.
- Retric 8y ago
  They also drive a lot less. They are 0.7 percent of all miles driven in the US, but 14 percent of all fatal accidents. You personally can decrease the risks, but not enough to adjust for the 35x per mile risk and make them safe to daily drive.