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"the government should not pay for private goods" -- this is the kind of evasive, hand-wavey crap that I'm talking about. Sorry about the tone, I don't mean to

by jbooth 16y ago

"the government should not pay for private goods" -- this is the kind of evasive, hand-wavey crap that I'm talking about. Sorry about the tone, I don't mean to be insulting and think you're an alright guy from our interactions, but it is hand wavey crap. I constantly see conservatives talking about "smaller government and lower taxes" and I never hear one idea from them about what they'd cut, let alone an acknowledgement of the fact that we had a budget surplus in 2000 and very much not in 2008. What does that sentence mean? Who defines "private good"? Are interstate highways a public good? Are positive externalities from a social safety net a public good?

lotharbot 16y ago
> "this is the kind of evasive, hand-wavey crap that I'm talking about." It's evasive and hand-wavey because you don't know what an economics term means and didn't take 30 seconds to look it up on google or wikipedia? I expect better from everyone on HN. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_goods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_goods Something is a private good if: - it can be distributed individually (that is, you can allow only those who've paid for it or registered for it to use it) - its use/consumption by one party precludes its use by another party Roadways can probably be categorized as a "club good" -- they can be used by multiple people, but it's possible to make them available only to "paying customers". Toll roads are a club good for those who pay the toll, while other roads are a club good for all registered/licensed motorists. To be a truly "public good" it needs to be impossible to exclude non-payers; things like clean air or military protection are public goods. Externalities are not goods; they are costs or benefits associated with goods but incurred by outside parties.
- jbooth 16y ago
  Of course I know what the term means. The point is that the term is mushy enough to be meaningless in all but the most trivial of applications. Nobody thinks the government should be competing with Sam's club in the retail breakfast cereal market. If something's being debated, it's almost by definition in the gray area. "I don't think the government should produce private goods" means effectively nothing.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    Dude, just apply the definition. No honest person is debating that SS/medicare are private goods, they are only debating whether the government should pay for them anyway. Just to avoid being accused of handwaving, I'll write out the obvious reasoning explicitly. Medicare: Rivalrous (the same dollar can't reimburse the doctor for your benefits and mine) and excludible (if you don't pay, they don't reimburse the doctor). Private good. SS: Rivalrous (you and I can't both spend an SS check) and excludible (if you don't pay in while young, they don't send you a check when you are old). Private good. Should I do the same thing for cheese fries or can you figure out for yourself that cheese fries are also a private good?
    - hugh3 16y ago
      I agree with you, but I'm gonna argue the other side right now since I see an objection to that particular line of argument. Suppose I now say that welfare is a public good since without it we'd have poor folks either rioting or dying in the streets. I benefit from that and so do you. Another line-blurring example: food in prison is a private good in that only one prisoner can eat it; however I don't have a problem with the government paying for that.
      - lotharbot 16y ago
        One could argue that welfare benefits the public, but that is not the same as saying welfare checks are public goods. It's a technical term that doesn't say anything about the external benefits to the public. Welfare checks are private goods, because if the funds go into one person's check the same funds can't also go into another person's check (rivalrous) and the checks can be sent to some people but not others (excludable). Food and clothing for prisoners or for military personnel are also private goods, though they're better categorized as components of the public goods of "functional criminal justice system" and "military protection".
        hugh3 16y ago
        So we appear to be in blurry-definitionland. Meals for prisoners are private goods which are part of the public good "functional criminal justice system". Welfare checks for unemployed bums are private goods which are part of the public good "no dead hobos on lawns".
- smokeyj 16y ago
  "- its use/consumption by one party precludes its use by another party" I'm glad you don't view intellectual property as legitimate property.
  - lotharbot 16y ago
    I don't view intellectual property as private goods; it doesn't meet the definition. I said nothing about its legitimacy as property, nor do I intend to, as that's not the topic at hand. Please do not drag the discussion off topic by twisting the definition given into something it's not.
yummyfajitas 16y ago
Lotharbot pointed you to wikipedia which explains it pretty well. Interstate highways are a public good, at least for as long as technology is not advanced enough to make metering them/excluding freeloaders feasible. As for what I'd cut, social security, medicare and welfare are at the top of my list. Quite a few conservatives (the limited government kind, not the "Dem + Christian nationalism" kind) have explicitly stated this, for example Paul Ryan. See our conversation from a month ago, the last time I pointed this fact out to you: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1745714 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1745714 (I believe Ron Paul also pushes cutting SS/medicare.)
- jfager 16y ago
  Tollbooths? And what about the military? Military protection is commonly cited as a public good, but sustaining the military requires massive government expenditures on private goods. How does that square with the idea that the government shouldn't pay for private goods? I think you're being overly harsh on the idea that the public/private goods distinction isn't always black-and-white. There are many obvious gray areas.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    When tollbooths are feasible, roads are indeed a private good. You are indeed correct that many of the intermediate goods in providing a public good are private goods when they are sold. I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, unless you are discussing something silly like the government buying tanks and giving them to private individuals. There are gray areas, but I think the biggies in the federal budget are pretty clear.
    - jfager 16y ago
      The point is, where do you draw the line? If you're comfortable with government spending money on private goods that are intermediate goods for military protection, then why not with government spending money on social programs that can be seen as intermediate goods for other kinds of public goods?

by jbooth 16y ago

lotharbot 16y ago

> "this is the kind of evasive, hand-wavey crap that I'm talking about." It's evasive and hand-wavey because you don't know what an economics term means and didn't take 30 seconds to look it up on google or wikipedia? I expect better from everyone on HN. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_goods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_goods Something is a private good if: - it can be distributed individually (that is, you can allow only those who've paid for it or registered for it to use it) - its use/consumption by one party precludes its use by another party Roadways can probably be categorized as a "club good" -- they can be used by multiple people, but it's possible to make them available only to "paying customers". Toll roads are a club good for those who pay the toll, while other roads are a club good for all registered/licensed motorists. To be a truly "public good" it needs to be impossible to exclude non-payers; things like clean air or military protection are public goods. Externalities are not goods; they are costs or benefits associated with goods but incurred by outside parties.

jbooth 16y ago
Of course I know what the term means. The point is that the term is mushy enough to be meaningless in all but the most trivial of applications. Nobody thinks the government should be competing with Sam's club in the retail breakfast cereal market. If something's being debated, it's almost by definition in the gray area. "I don't think the government should produce private goods" means effectively nothing.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  Dude, just apply the definition. No honest person is debating that SS/medicare are private goods, they are only debating whether the government should pay for them anyway. Just to avoid being accused of handwaving, I'll write out the obvious reasoning explicitly. Medicare: Rivalrous (the same dollar can't reimburse the doctor for your benefits and mine) and excludible (if you don't pay, they don't reimburse the doctor). Private good. SS: Rivalrous (you and I can't both spend an SS check) and excludible (if you don't pay in while young, they don't send you a check when you are old). Private good. Should I do the same thing for cheese fries or can you figure out for yourself that cheese fries are also a private good?
  - hugh3 16y ago
    I agree with you, but I'm gonna argue the other side right now since I see an objection to that particular line of argument. Suppose I now say that welfare is a public good since without it we'd have poor folks either rioting or dying in the streets. I benefit from that and so do you. Another line-blurring example: food in prison is a private good in that only one prisoner can eat it; however I don't have a problem with the government paying for that.
    - lotharbot 16y ago
      One could argue that welfare benefits the public, but that is not the same as saying welfare checks are public goods. It's a technical term that doesn't say anything about the external benefits to the public. Welfare checks are private goods, because if the funds go into one person's check the same funds can't also go into another person's check (rivalrous) and the checks can be sent to some people but not others (excludable). Food and clothing for prisoners or for military personnel are also private goods, though they're better categorized as components of the public goods of "functional criminal justice system" and "military protection".
      - hugh3 16y ago
        So we appear to be in blurry-definitionland. Meals for prisoners are private goods which are part of the public good "functional criminal justice system". Welfare checks for unemployed bums are private goods which are part of the public good "no dead hobos on lawns".
smokeyj 16y ago
"- its use/consumption by one party precludes its use by another party" I'm glad you don't view intellectual property as legitimate property.
- lotharbot 16y ago
  I don't view intellectual property as private goods; it doesn't meet the definition. I said nothing about its legitimacy as property, nor do I intend to, as that's not the topic at hand. Please do not drag the discussion off topic by twisting the definition given into something it's not.

yummyfajitas 16y ago

Lotharbot pointed you to wikipedia which explains it pretty well. Interstate highways are a public good, at least for as long as technology is not advanced enough to make metering them/excluding freeloaders feasible. As for what I'd cut, social security, medicare and welfare are at the top of my list. Quite a few conservatives (the limited government kind, not the "Dem + Christian nationalism" kind) have explicitly stated this, for example Paul Ryan. See our conversation from a month ago, the last time I pointed this fact out to you: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1745714 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1745714 (I believe Ron Paul also pushes cutting SS/medicare.)

jfager 16y ago
Tollbooths? And what about the military? Military protection is commonly cited as a public good, but sustaining the military requires massive government expenditures on private goods. How does that square with the idea that the government shouldn't pay for private goods? I think you're being overly harsh on the idea that the public/private goods distinction isn't always black-and-white. There are many obvious gray areas.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  When tollbooths are feasible, roads are indeed a private good. You are indeed correct that many of the intermediate goods in providing a public good are private goods when they are sold. I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, unless you are discussing something silly like the government buying tanks and giving them to private individuals. There are gray areas, but I think the biggies in the federal budget are pretty clear.
  - jfager 16y ago
    The point is, where do you draw the line? If you're comfortable with government spending money on private goods that are intermediate goods for military protection, then why not with government spending money on social programs that can be seen as intermediate goods for other kinds of public goods?