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Haha, opposite of my experience. They have failed to navigate the left turn off rengstorf El Camino for the last 2 years (they always stop in the middle of the

Haha, opposite of my experience. They have failed to navigate the left turn off rengstorf El Camino for the last 2 years (they always stop in the middle of the intersection). A pedestrian on the corner next to a stop sign causes them to pause in the middle of the intersection for an uncomfortable amount of time, to the point where you aren't sure if you should just go around them or what. On my bicycle and motorcycle, I don't trust them at all. I've had them come within inches of me on a turn, without slowing down a bit. Maybe they saw me and executed a highly efficient path avoidance mechanism, no way to tell, all I know is they operate around me in a way that fires all my 'watch out, this motherfucker doesn't see you' alarms while I'm on two wheels. Ok, I'm being mean - it's a miracle they can go at all, let alone not hit people. Today at the aforementioned intersection, at the turn they always fail at, a bicyclist got ran over by a pick-up truck. The waymo SUV slowly pulled up to the intersection while people ran back and forth dragging the bicycle and his groceries and other debris away, and didn't run anyone over. Never stopped slowly creeping towards people, which was weird as hell, but hey. Handled a super odd situation like a champ.

dougmany 8y ago
>pedestrian jaywalks in front as they're stopped at a stop sign; >A pedestrian on the corner next to a stop sign causes them to pause I am struggling to reconcile how the pedestrian does not have the right of way in both these cases.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  What action you take depends on what state you're in, and where the pedestrian is. > Pedestrian crossing: 50 state summary > The majority of states, however, only require motorists to yield to, rather than stop for, pedestrians crossing at uncontrolled crosswalks. Nineteen states require a motorist to yield when a pedestrian is upon any portion of the roadway. Louisiana mandates motorist yielding when a pedestrian is upon the same half of the roadway. Nebraska requires yielding when a pedestrian is upon the same half of the roadway or within one lane of the motorist. Massachusetts mandates yielding when a pedestrian is upon the same half of the roadway or within 10 feet of the motorist; and 20 states mandate motorists yield when a pedestrian is upon the same half of the roadway or approaching closely enough from the opposite side of the roadway to constitute a danger. In addition, in at least five states and the District of Columbia, bicyclists have the same or similar rights as pedestrians. http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/pedestrian-crossing-50-state-summary.aspx http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/pedestrian-cross...
- komali2 8y ago
  In my example (standing at corner), they certainly have right of way, whenever they plan on walking. Sometimes they're just hanging out, which is usually obvious to a human, but in a subtle way I can't describe, let alone guess at how to program.
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    In my example (jaywalker) they stopped and waited for the pedestrian to cross the street. The pause times do seem longer than a human would take (I noticed this with the right-turn with pedestrian case as well), but I'd rather that self-driving cars err on the side of safe rather than sorry.
    - komali2 8y ago
      Agreed, endgame (all cars self driving) it's gonna be better. But when there's a mix on the road, I imagine a lot of awkwardness. I feel like they should throw a little LCD panel on each side of the car so it can just display a message like "yielding to pedestrian" or whatever.
      - waqf 8y ago
        Imagine the lawsuits when someone relies on what they saw on the panel and an accident ensues. This is why we can't have nice things.
      - nielsole 8y ago
        Mercedes has spent some thought on this. They propose having LEDs in the front of the car that colour where it sees pedestrians, so you know if you've been seen.
    - fjsolwmv 8y ago
      1. "Jaywalker" ("crazy walker") is a slur invented by the auto industry to remove the civil rights of humans not in cars. 2. Your example doesn't even seem to meet the slur's definition.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  >I am struggling to reconcile how the pedestrian does not have the right of way in both these cases. A pedestrian jaywalking does certainly not have "the right of way". That doesn't mean the car doesn't still have an obligation to avoid hitting them. The rules of the road are redundant for a reason, one party not doing what they're supposed to should not cause a crash.
  - EpicEng 8y ago
    If the car is at a stop sign no person walking in front of them could possibly be jaywalking.
sidibe 8y ago
The Rengstorff-El Camino intersection seems incorrect. If you are turning left from Rengstorff to El Camino it's not a left turn arrow, but actually when it's green, the cars on the parking lot on the opposite side have a red light. I've been confused by this because it seems like if there's a car wanting to go straight on the opposite side and no turn arrow, you shouldn't turn left, but that's how that intersection works.
- corndoge 8y ago
  That is indeed wrong, wonder if there's some public feedback mechanism for reporting non protocol conforming intersections :)
  - tjohns 8y ago
    The City of Mountain View has a public works issue tracker system, which you can use to submit a request to the city engineers: https://clients.comcate.com/newrequest.php?id=128# https://clients.comcate.com/newrequest.php?id=128# Keep in mind that both El Camino Real and freeway ramps are maintained by CalTrans, not the city. But the one time I submitted a issue about a freeway off-ramp they forwarded the report to CalTrans for me, so it's a good place to start.
    - komali2 8y ago
      Also that intersection is literally the border of Los Altos and mountain view, and is only "partially" managed by Caltrand. I dunno what that means, it's what the lady on the phone told me.
  - komali2 8y ago
    That intersection has always been horrible. Our office looks straight onto it so it's our favorite thing to just watch and wait for the inevitable (usually tame) accident.
specialist 8y ago
"...you aren't sure if you should just go around them or what" It just now occurs to me that autonomous cars could have status lights. So that an observer can better predict what's gonna happen next. Kinda like the purpose brake lights and blinkers serve. Flashing yellow lights indicates the car is confused, thinks there's a safety risk, or whatever. An expanded visual vocabulary.
- LoSboccacc 8y ago
  hazards during hazards are fine but I don't think adding more status light with proprietary meaning would really help. on the other hand a led matrix with pictograms would be great
mavhc 8y ago
What they need is to tell the people around them that they've been seen, maybe an led strip that glows in your direction, green for "congrats, you're very predictable", blue for "what the hell are you doing", and black for off "haven't seen you yet"
wpietri 8y ago
> pedestrian on the corner next to a stop sign causes them to pause in the middle of the intersection for an uncomfortable amount of time This is a really interesting point to me, and I think it's one of the major weak points for self-driving cars: they have to pass a kind of Turing test. You have a good example of something we do all the time when driving: try to read the mind of the driver. Don Norman wrote a book titled, "Turn Signals are the Facial Expressions of Automobiles", but it goes well beyond that. We use the "body language" of driving to infer driver intent. I think the best short-term case is that people make excuses for the dumb robot as you do here. But a very plausible outcome is that we get an "uncanny valley" effect for robot cars where people resent and are creeped out by something pretending to be human but falling short.

dougmany 8y ago

>pedestrian jaywalks in front as they're stopped at a stop sign; >A pedestrian on the corner next to a stop sign causes them to pause I am struggling to reconcile how the pedestrian does not have the right of way in both these cases.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
What action you take depends on what state you're in, and where the pedestrian is. > Pedestrian crossing: 50 state summary > The majority of states, however, only require motorists to yield to, rather than stop for, pedestrians crossing at uncontrolled crosswalks. Nineteen states require a motorist to yield when a pedestrian is upon any portion of the roadway. Louisiana mandates motorist yielding when a pedestrian is upon the same half of the roadway. Nebraska requires yielding when a pedestrian is upon the same half of the roadway or within one lane of the motorist. Massachusetts mandates yielding when a pedestrian is upon the same half of the roadway or within 10 feet of the motorist; and 20 states mandate motorists yield when a pedestrian is upon the same half of the roadway or approaching closely enough from the opposite side of the roadway to constitute a danger. In addition, in at least five states and the District of Columbia, bicyclists have the same or similar rights as pedestrians. http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/pedestrian-crossing-50-state-summary.aspx http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/pedestrian-cross...
komali2 8y ago
In my example (standing at corner), they certainly have right of way, whenever they plan on walking. Sometimes they're just hanging out, which is usually obvious to a human, but in a subtle way I can't describe, let alone guess at how to program.
- nostrademons 8y ago
  In my example (jaywalker) they stopped and waited for the pedestrian to cross the street. The pause times do seem longer than a human would take (I noticed this with the right-turn with pedestrian case as well), but I'd rather that self-driving cars err on the side of safe rather than sorry.
  - komali2 8y ago
    Agreed, endgame (all cars self driving) it's gonna be better. But when there's a mix on the road, I imagine a lot of awkwardness. I feel like they should throw a little LCD panel on each side of the car so it can just display a message like "yielding to pedestrian" or whatever.
    - waqf 8y ago
      Imagine the lawsuits when someone relies on what they saw on the panel and an accident ensues. This is why we can't have nice things.
    - nielsole 8y ago
      Mercedes has spent some thought on this. They propose having LEDs in the front of the car that colour where it sees pedestrians, so you know if you've been seen.
  - fjsolwmv 8y ago
    1. "Jaywalker" ("crazy walker") is a slur invented by the auto industry to remove the civil rights of humans not in cars. 2. Your example doesn't even seem to meet the slur's definition.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>I am struggling to reconcile how the pedestrian does not have the right of way in both these cases. A pedestrian jaywalking does certainly not have "the right of way". That doesn't mean the car doesn't still have an obligation to avoid hitting them. The rules of the road are redundant for a reason, one party not doing what they're supposed to should not cause a crash.
- EpicEng 8y ago
  If the car is at a stop sign no person walking in front of them could possibly be jaywalking.

sidibe 8y ago

The Rengstorff-El Camino intersection seems incorrect. If you are turning left from Rengstorff to El Camino it's not a left turn arrow, but actually when it's green, the cars on the parking lot on the opposite side have a red light. I've been confused by this because it seems like if there's a car wanting to go straight on the opposite side and no turn arrow, you shouldn't turn left, but that's how that intersection works.

corndoge 8y ago
That is indeed wrong, wonder if there's some public feedback mechanism for reporting non protocol conforming intersections :)
- tjohns 8y ago
  The City of Mountain View has a public works issue tracker system, which you can use to submit a request to the city engineers: https://clients.comcate.com/newrequest.php?id=128# https://clients.comcate.com/newrequest.php?id=128# Keep in mind that both El Camino Real and freeway ramps are maintained by CalTrans, not the city. But the one time I submitted a issue about a freeway off-ramp they forwarded the report to CalTrans for me, so it's a good place to start.
  - komali2 8y ago
    Also that intersection is literally the border of Los Altos and mountain view, and is only "partially" managed by Caltrand. I dunno what that means, it's what the lady on the phone told me.
- komali2 8y ago
  That intersection has always been horrible. Our office looks straight onto it so it's our favorite thing to just watch and wait for the inevitable (usually tame) accident.

specialist 8y ago

"...you aren't sure if you should just go around them or what" It just now occurs to me that autonomous cars could have status lights. So that an observer can better predict what's gonna happen next. Kinda like the purpose brake lights and blinkers serve. Flashing yellow lights indicates the car is confused, thinks there's a safety risk, or whatever. An expanded visual vocabulary.

LoSboccacc 8y ago
hazards during hazards are fine but I don't think adding more status light with proprietary meaning would really help. on the other hand a led matrix with pictograms would be great

mavhc 8y ago

What they need is to tell the people around them that they've been seen, maybe an led strip that glows in your direction, green for "congrats, you're very predictable", blue for "what the hell are you doing", and black for off "haven't seen you yet"

wpietri 8y ago

> pedestrian on the corner next to a stop sign causes them to pause in the middle of the intersection for an uncomfortable amount of time This is a really interesting point to me, and I think it's one of the major weak points for self-driving cars: they have to pass a kind of Turing test. You have a good example of something we do all the time when driving: try to read the mind of the driver. Don Norman wrote a book titled, "Turn Signals are the Facial Expressions of Automobiles", but it goes well beyond that. We use the "body language" of driving to infer driver intent. I think the best short-term case is that people make excuses for the dumb robot as you do here. But a very plausible outcome is that we get an "uncanny valley" effect for robot cars where people resent and are creeped out by something pretending to be human but falling short.