7 ms·

Fine, then. If you want to be all against those programs, then explicitly say "What I want is for social security and medicare to be abolished". SS and Medica

by jbooth 16y ago

Fine, then. If you want to be all against those programs, then explicitly say "What I want is for social security and medicare to be abolished". SS and Medicare run entirely separate from the rest of the federal gov't, raised on their own taxes, run by their own agencies -- they're entirely separate. You're not "anti government" and don't have a point about "government", you have a point about federally mandated social insurance programs that are incredibly popular with everyone else. A bunch of whining about "government" just betrays either ignorance or willful omission by people who talk about "smaller government" in between assuring seniors that their medicare is safe.

steamer25 16y ago
What I want is for social security and medicare to be abolished.
yummyfajitas 16y ago
I was only pointing out a logical flaw in paulsmith's argument. I wasn't taking a position one way or the other. But I'll be explicit in my position since you want to imply I'm being deceptive about it: the government should not pay for private goods. I'm not going to debate the matter here, however, beyond pointing out that in a population of 2 wolves and 1 sheep, lamb chops are an incredibly popular dinner choice.
- jbooth 16y ago
  "the government should not pay for private goods" -- this is the kind of evasive, hand-wavey crap that I'm talking about. Sorry about the tone, I don't mean to be insulting and think you're an alright guy from our interactions, but it is hand wavey crap. I constantly see conservatives talking about "smaller government and lower taxes" and I never hear one idea from them about what they'd cut, let alone an acknowledgement of the fact that we had a budget surplus in 2000 and very much not in 2008. What does that sentence mean? Who defines "private good"? Are interstate highways a public good? Are positive externalities from a social safety net a public good?
  - lotharbot 16y ago
    > "this is the kind of evasive, hand-wavey crap that I'm talking about." It's evasive and hand-wavey because you don't know what an economics term means and didn't take 30 seconds to look it up on google or wikipedia? I expect better from everyone on HN. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_goods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_goods Something is a private good if: - it can be distributed individually (that is, you can allow only those who've paid for it or registered for it to use it) - its use/consumption by one party precludes its use by another party Roadways can probably be categorized as a "club good" -- they can be used by multiple people, but it's possible to make them available only to "paying customers". Toll roads are a club good for those who pay the toll, while other roads are a club good for all registered/licensed motorists. To be a truly "public good" it needs to be impossible to exclude non-payers; things like clean air or military protection are public goods. Externalities are not goods; they are costs or benefits associated with goods but incurred by outside parties.
    - jbooth 16y ago
      Of course I know what the term means. The point is that the term is mushy enough to be meaningless in all but the most trivial of applications. Nobody thinks the government should be competing with Sam's club in the retail breakfast cereal market. If something's being debated, it's almost by definition in the gray area. "I don't think the government should produce private goods" means effectively nothing.
      - yummyfajitas 16y ago
        Dude, just apply the definition. No honest person is debating that SS/medicare are private goods, they are only debating whether the government should pay for them anyway. Just to avoid being accused of handwaving, I'll write out the obvious reasoning explicitly. Medicare: Rivalrous (the same dollar can't reimburse the doctor for your benefits and mine) and excludible (if you don't pay, they don't reimburse the doctor). Private good. SS: Rivalrous (you and I can't both spend an SS check) and excludible (if you don't pay in while young, they don't send you a check when you are old). Private good. Should I do the same thing for cheese fries or can you figure out for yourself that cheese fries are also a private good?
cjbprime 16y ago
Excellent post, reminds me of http://log.ometer.com/2009-09.html http://log.ometer.com/2009-09.html .

by jbooth 16y ago

steamer25 16y ago

What I want is for social security and medicare to be abolished.

yummyfajitas 16y ago

I was only pointing out a logical flaw in paulsmith's argument. I wasn't taking a position one way or the other. But I'll be explicit in my position since you want to imply I'm being deceptive about it: the government should not pay for private goods. I'm not going to debate the matter here, however, beyond pointing out that in a population of 2 wolves and 1 sheep, lamb chops are an incredibly popular dinner choice.

jbooth 16y ago
"the government should not pay for private goods" -- this is the kind of evasive, hand-wavey crap that I'm talking about. Sorry about the tone, I don't mean to be insulting and think you're an alright guy from our interactions, but it is hand wavey crap. I constantly see conservatives talking about "smaller government and lower taxes" and I never hear one idea from them about what they'd cut, let alone an acknowledgement of the fact that we had a budget surplus in 2000 and very much not in 2008. What does that sentence mean? Who defines "private good"? Are interstate highways a public good? Are positive externalities from a social safety net a public good?
- lotharbot 16y ago
  > "this is the kind of evasive, hand-wavey crap that I'm talking about." It's evasive and hand-wavey because you don't know what an economics term means and didn't take 30 seconds to look it up on google or wikipedia? I expect better from everyone on HN. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_goods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_goods Something is a private good if: - it can be distributed individually (that is, you can allow only those who've paid for it or registered for it to use it) - its use/consumption by one party precludes its use by another party Roadways can probably be categorized as a "club good" -- they can be used by multiple people, but it's possible to make them available only to "paying customers". Toll roads are a club good for those who pay the toll, while other roads are a club good for all registered/licensed motorists. To be a truly "public good" it needs to be impossible to exclude non-payers; things like clean air or military protection are public goods. Externalities are not goods; they are costs or benefits associated with goods but incurred by outside parties.
  - jbooth 16y ago
    Of course I know what the term means. The point is that the term is mushy enough to be meaningless in all but the most trivial of applications. Nobody thinks the government should be competing with Sam's club in the retail breakfast cereal market. If something's being debated, it's almost by definition in the gray area. "I don't think the government should produce private goods" means effectively nothing.
    - yummyfajitas 16y ago
      Dude, just apply the definition. No honest person is debating that SS/medicare are private goods, they are only debating whether the government should pay for them anyway. Just to avoid being accused of handwaving, I'll write out the obvious reasoning explicitly. Medicare: Rivalrous (the same dollar can't reimburse the doctor for your benefits and mine) and excludible (if you don't pay, they don't reimburse the doctor). Private good. SS: Rivalrous (you and I can't both spend an SS check) and excludible (if you don't pay in while young, they don't send you a check when you are old). Private good. Should I do the same thing for cheese fries or can you figure out for yourself that cheese fries are also a private good?

cjbprime 16y ago

Excellent post, reminds me of http://log.ometer.com/2009-09.html http://log.ometer.com/2009-09.html .