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I read this article a while ago, and I had a reaction that I think has gelled a little more since then. I think I take issue with the notion that elite = ivy l

by geebee 16y ago

I read this article a while ago, and I had a reaction that I think has gelled a little more since then. I think I take issue with the notion that elite = ivy league (or similar institutions). It's true that ivies dominate the top spots of the us news and world report undergraduate college rankings (where no public university cracks the top 20) and tend to do well on rankings of top professional school programs (especially mba and law), but interestingly, they don't dominate the list of top graduate schools to the same extent (where public universities do quite well), and they show up even less often on rankings of top engineering schools. In short, I think it's time we redefined what an elite college really is. The question the writer poses is a very interesting one: are students at elite colleges out of touch with the rest of society? But I'd like to see the same question asked about the graduates of UC Berkeley, UCLA, Texas, Michigan, Illinois, CMU, MIT, Stanford, Caltech, and other universities with top engineering schools. It's an open question, I'll admit. There probably is a reasonable case to be made that the large public research institutions that have such excellent engineering programs just aren't elite by the standards of the US (this isn't China or France, after all). And I suppose you could also say that graduates of these schools are every bit as out of touch (and as snobby as the author implies) as grads of the top ivies...

klochner 16y ago
The author doesn't mean Elite in the sense of "good" or "high quality". The Elite he's referring to is the Upper Class. The culture at the top Ivies is nothing like that at any of the schools that you listed. State and tech schools have a lot more class diversity, and while Stanford isn't state or tech, it seems to value diversity more than the Ivies. . . . so the author isn't saying you get a better education (almost the opposite) at an Elite University, just that you'll be surrounded by entitled children of the wealthy, and coddled as such.
- geebee 16y ago
  You're absolutely right that elite = ivy when you're talking about social class, which clearly is what is going on here. What I'm trying to do is put in a claim on the word. Ever read Henry James's "The American"? It's a story from the late 1800s about a wealthy American in Paris who, at one point, seeks to marry a young woman from an aristocratic French family. The brother (I think) informs him that there is a problem - "you are not noble". His reply (sorry, paraphrasing) is "the devil I am not!" The brother becomes more serious and says "oh, I didn't know that you had a title." The American says he doesn't have a title, but he's putting in a claim on this whole "noble" thing... I guess that's what I'm doing. I won't concede the term "elite" to a parasitic upper class, any more than I'd give away the term "best and brightest" (oh, you see, I'm defining "best and brightest" to mean ivy league, hewh hewh"). I think that graduates of these schools should absolutely put in a claim on the word "elite". We may come off as a little comical, like Henry James's American... but in the long run, well look what happened to the French aristocracy ;) Oh, one quick thing - I agree with you that you're more likely to encounter real economic diversity at the large state schools (even the top ones) than at the ivies, but I still want to make sure I point out that it would be extremely very unfair to suggest that ivy leaguers are a uniformly "parasitic upper class" group. Hell, it would have probably even been somewhat unfair in 1958. It's definitely not fair now. That said, there really is something about engineering - probably it's history as more of a middle-class profession. I read that John Nash was deeply disappointed to get a faculty appointment at MIT rather than Harvard out of his PhD program (at Princeton, I think it was). The author of the biography had to take an aside to explain to 21st century readers that at the time, the math dept at MIT was still viewed somewhat as place where middle class engineers learned their calculus, though it was in the midst of transitioning into the elite school it is now (John Nash was the sort of acquisition MIT was starting to make).
  - MediaSquirrel 16y ago
    As 2x UC Berkeley dropout and Columbia alum who financed his education by working as a paramedic in the Bronx, I can unambiguously say that I know EXACTLY what the author is talking about. The Ivies offer you access to power in a way that even the best state schools never can or will. There is a sense of entitlement, a "welcome to the ruling class" sensibility that permeates the place. The Old Boys Club, indeed. My experience is mainly New York, but the elite mentality runs deep. And since switching coasts, I've left that behind. It feels great.
  - metageek 16y ago
    The problem is that "elite" doesn't just mean "best", and never did. Look at the etymology [1]: it just means "chosen", which is exactly what it means when referring to the Ivy League. [1] http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=elite http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=elite
da288 16y ago
In my experience, there is a placebo in this delusional sense of elitism that galvanises your belief in being able to achieve literally anything. At your disposal are unrivalled resources, networks, prestige and financial backing that make it much easier to succeed.
napierzaza 16y ago
It's nice that you want to redefine elite, perhaps to include yourself. But I think he was quite clear he meant the ivy universities such as Harvard and Yale.

by geebee 16y ago

klochner 16y ago

The author doesn't mean Elite in the sense of "good" or "high quality". The Elite he's referring to is the Upper Class. The culture at the top Ivies is nothing like that at any of the schools that you listed. State and tech schools have a lot more class diversity, and while Stanford isn't state or tech, it seems to value diversity more than the Ivies. . . . so the author isn't saying you get a better education (almost the opposite) at an Elite University, just that you'll be surrounded by entitled children of the wealthy, and coddled as such.

geebee 16y ago
You're absolutely right that elite = ivy when you're talking about social class, which clearly is what is going on here. What I'm trying to do is put in a claim on the word. Ever read Henry James's "The American"? It's a story from the late 1800s about a wealthy American in Paris who, at one point, seeks to marry a young woman from an aristocratic French family. The brother (I think) informs him that there is a problem - "you are not noble". His reply (sorry, paraphrasing) is "the devil I am not!" The brother becomes more serious and says "oh, I didn't know that you had a title." The American says he doesn't have a title, but he's putting in a claim on this whole "noble" thing... I guess that's what I'm doing. I won't concede the term "elite" to a parasitic upper class, any more than I'd give away the term "best and brightest" (oh, you see, I'm defining "best and brightest" to mean ivy league, hewh hewh"). I think that graduates of these schools should absolutely put in a claim on the word "elite". We may come off as a little comical, like Henry James's American... but in the long run, well look what happened to the French aristocracy ;) Oh, one quick thing - I agree with you that you're more likely to encounter real economic diversity at the large state schools (even the top ones) than at the ivies, but I still want to make sure I point out that it would be extremely very unfair to suggest that ivy leaguers are a uniformly "parasitic upper class" group. Hell, it would have probably even been somewhat unfair in 1958. It's definitely not fair now. That said, there really is something about engineering - probably it's history as more of a middle-class profession. I read that John Nash was deeply disappointed to get a faculty appointment at MIT rather than Harvard out of his PhD program (at Princeton, I think it was). The author of the biography had to take an aside to explain to 21st century readers that at the time, the math dept at MIT was still viewed somewhat as place where middle class engineers learned their calculus, though it was in the midst of transitioning into the elite school it is now (John Nash was the sort of acquisition MIT was starting to make).
- MediaSquirrel 16y ago
  As 2x UC Berkeley dropout and Columbia alum who financed his education by working as a paramedic in the Bronx, I can unambiguously say that I know EXACTLY what the author is talking about. The Ivies offer you access to power in a way that even the best state schools never can or will. There is a sense of entitlement, a "welcome to the ruling class" sensibility that permeates the place. The Old Boys Club, indeed. My experience is mainly New York, but the elite mentality runs deep. And since switching coasts, I've left that behind. It feels great.
- metageek 16y ago
  The problem is that "elite" doesn't just mean "best", and never did. Look at the etymology [1]: it just means "chosen", which is exactly what it means when referring to the Ivy League. [1] http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=elite http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=elite

da288 16y ago

In my experience, there is a placebo in this delusional sense of elitism that galvanises your belief in being able to achieve literally anything. At your disposal are unrivalled resources, networks, prestige and financial backing that make it much easier to succeed.

napierzaza 16y ago

It's nice that you want to redefine elite, perhaps to include yourself. But I think he was quite clear he meant the ivy universities such as Harvard and Yale.