5 ms·

As in something different from unix I take it

by sam0x17 8y ago

stcredzero 8y ago
If an operating system was built to run lambdas instead of processes, what would that look like?
- ASipos 8y ago
  If K-A-T doesn't spell 'cat', what does it spell?
  - Crespyl 8y ago
    'kat'
- nixpulvis 8y ago
  What is a lambda to you in this case? That lambda will need to be scheduled, it will need to maintain it's scope... All the same general issues could exist. There have been plenty of machines that simply run functions, in fact before there was things we call OSes today, the machines that ran the code would typically not have an notion of time sharing, and would map even more closely to a pure lambda evaluator. Without specifics about what differences you mean, lambda = function = process = thread = fiber = service = worker = ...
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    What is a lambda to you in this case? Pure functions. That lambda will need to be scheduled, it will need to maintain it's scope... All the same general issues could exist. But no users would have to be able to start processes. Instead, lambdas could be associated with persistent storage of state, and processes would be started by the OS to apply the lambdas in a simulation loop, but users wouldn't directly start processes. Perhaps thinking of those as processes isn't quite right either.
    - nixpulvis 8y ago
      The only truly pure functions exist in the imaginary world of mathematics, if you even believe that. But I think I kinda get your point, but would challenge you to think about this issue with the frame of mind of access control and permissions a bit. I think you'll find the need for some kind of process like task. Maybe not...
      - stcredzero 8y ago
        The only truly pure functions exist in the imaginary world of mathematics, if you even believe that. Note I already mentioned persistent stores of state. I think you'll find the need for some kind of process like task. Maybe not... Maybe re-read. I've already said that there would be a process like task. Lambdas will need to be associated with state. Users won't have to start processes. Instead, processes will be more like processors.
        macintux 8y ago
        This sounds like the Erlang VM.
        stcredzero 8y ago
        I'll take that as positive feedback.
    - chc4 8y ago
      Have you looked at Urbit? It uses this idea - programs are state machines that you give to the runtime, which pumps them with events (IO, RPC calls, etc) that return [new-state events-out]. All programs are purely functional and deterministic, so you can replay events or serialize the app to transfer somewhere else.
      - stcredzero 8y ago
        All programs are purely functional and deterministic, so you can replay events or serialize the app to transfer somewhere else. Interesting. Actually, I have one of my processes serializing its state and exporting it to a different process, while all of the clients continue playing the MMOsteroids game they're logged into.
- someguydave 8y ago
  It would look like a LISP machine from Symbolics...
- abecedarius 8y ago
  "A security kernel based on the lambda calculus" http://mumble.net/~jar/pubs/secureos/ http://mumble.net/~jar/pubs/secureos/ http://cap-lore.com/CapTheory/upenn/ http://cap-lore.com/CapTheory/upenn/
nixpulvis 8y ago
I feel like a new fresh look at what UNIX is today could be valuable. I wouldn't want to give up a lot of the philosophy around it. Redox does in fact do this in a number of places, for example I think the expansion on "everything is a file" [1] is a pretty awesome idea. [1]: https://doc.redox-os.org/book/design/url_scheme_resource/everything_is_a_url.html https://doc.redox-os.org/book/design/url_scheme_resource/eve...
- sam0x17 8y ago
  I'd love to see a "there are no paths, file system is a db" like it was originally rumored Vista was going to be. I'd also love to see more opinionated OS integration e.g. per-application volume sliders, better file system search indexing, real-time built-in file and directory watching API that can be blocking or non-blocking, standardized storage of program files instead of installed app locations being ambiguous, standardized system and app settings via a neat API, etc., etc., an easy and sane git-based package manager, etc
  - GordonS 8y ago
    Windows 10 does per-application volume control. Chrome OS has a fixed app install location, as does Windows 10 in 'S' mode (since you can only install store apps). I remember being intrigued by the database-as-filesystem idea when it was first touted - has any OS actually implemented this? I'd be interested to see how it works in practice.
    - TickleSteve 8y ago
      "pick" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pick_operating_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pick_operating_system Everything old is new again... this was from the mid-60s and was relatively popular for its time.
      - gvx 8y ago
        Very interesting. The one thing that stood out to me was this, though: > It is named after one of its developers, Dick Pick. What an unfortunate name.
dralley 8y ago
That only makes things more confusing because Redox is explicitly not a traditional Unix. It's more like Plan9, except it goes even further than Plan9 in few places, and things like the Ion shell in Redox don't attempt to be Posix compatible.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  What about comparing Redox with Inferno instead? The actual end of the line for UNIX improvements done by the original designers. I never get the mistic around the middle stop instead of the end of the line.

As in something different from unix I take it

stcredzero 8y ago

If an operating system was built to run lambdas instead of processes, what would that look like?

ASipos 8y ago
If K-A-T doesn't spell 'cat', what does it spell?
- Crespyl 8y ago
  'kat'
nixpulvis 8y ago
What is a lambda to you in this case? That lambda will need to be scheduled, it will need to maintain it's scope... All the same general issues could exist. There have been plenty of machines that simply run functions, in fact before there was things we call OSes today, the machines that ran the code would typically not have an notion of time sharing, and would map even more closely to a pure lambda evaluator. Without specifics about what differences you mean, lambda = function = process = thread = fiber = service = worker = ...
- stcredzero 8y ago
  What is a lambda to you in this case? Pure functions. That lambda will need to be scheduled, it will need to maintain it's scope... All the same general issues could exist. But no users would have to be able to start processes. Instead, lambdas could be associated with persistent storage of state, and processes would be started by the OS to apply the lambdas in a simulation loop, but users wouldn't directly start processes. Perhaps thinking of those as processes isn't quite right either.
  - nixpulvis 8y ago
    The only truly pure functions exist in the imaginary world of mathematics, if you even believe that. But I think I kinda get your point, but would challenge you to think about this issue with the frame of mind of access control and permissions a bit. I think you'll find the need for some kind of process like task. Maybe not...
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      The only truly pure functions exist in the imaginary world of mathematics, if you even believe that. Note I already mentioned persistent stores of state. I think you'll find the need for some kind of process like task. Maybe not... Maybe re-read. I've already said that there would be a process like task. Lambdas will need to be associated with state. Users won't have to start processes. Instead, processes will be more like processors.
      - macintux 8y ago
        This sounds like the Erlang VM.
        stcredzero 8y ago
        I'll take that as positive feedback.
  - chc4 8y ago
    Have you looked at Urbit? It uses this idea - programs are state machines that you give to the runtime, which pumps them with events (IO, RPC calls, etc) that return [new-state events-out]. All programs are purely functional and deterministic, so you can replay events or serialize the app to transfer somewhere else.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      All programs are purely functional and deterministic, so you can replay events or serialize the app to transfer somewhere else. Interesting. Actually, I have one of my processes serializing its state and exporting it to a different process, while all of the clients continue playing the MMOsteroids game they're logged into.
someguydave 8y ago
It would look like a LISP machine from Symbolics...
abecedarius 8y ago
"A security kernel based on the lambda calculus" http://mumble.net/~jar/pubs/secureos/ http://mumble.net/~jar/pubs/secureos/ http://cap-lore.com/CapTheory/upenn/ http://cap-lore.com/CapTheory/upenn/

nixpulvis 8y ago

I feel like a new fresh look at what UNIX is today could be valuable. I wouldn't want to give up a lot of the philosophy around it. Redox does in fact do this in a number of places, for example I think the expansion on "everything is a file" [1] is a pretty awesome idea. [1]: https://doc.redox-os.org/book/design/url_scheme_resource/everything_is_a_url.html https://doc.redox-os.org/book/design/url_scheme_resource/eve...

sam0x17 8y ago
I'd love to see a "there are no paths, file system is a db" like it was originally rumored Vista was going to be. I'd also love to see more opinionated OS integration e.g. per-application volume sliders, better file system search indexing, real-time built-in file and directory watching API that can be blocking or non-blocking, standardized storage of program files instead of installed app locations being ambiguous, standardized system and app settings via a neat API, etc., etc., an easy and sane git-based package manager, etc
- GordonS 8y ago
  Windows 10 does per-application volume control. Chrome OS has a fixed app install location, as does Windows 10 in 'S' mode (since you can only install store apps). I remember being intrigued by the database-as-filesystem idea when it was first touted - has any OS actually implemented this? I'd be interested to see how it works in practice.
  - TickleSteve 8y ago
    "pick" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pick_operating_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pick_operating_system Everything old is new again... this was from the mid-60s and was relatively popular for its time.
    - gvx 8y ago
      Very interesting. The one thing that stood out to me was this, though: > It is named after one of its developers, Dick Pick. What an unfortunate name.

dralley 8y ago

That only makes things more confusing because Redox is explicitly not a traditional Unix. It's more like Plan9, except it goes even further than Plan9 in few places, and things like the Ion shell in Redox don't attempt to be Posix compatible.

pjmlp 8y ago
What about comparing Redox with Inferno instead? The actual end of the line for UNIX improvements done by the original designers. I never get the mistic around the middle stop instead of the end of the line.