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Itamar Turner-Trauring latest Software Clown newsletter¹ (#105) was about this. The author wrote about a similar story where a company he worked at changed as i

Itamar Turner-Trauring latest Software Clown newsletter¹ (#105) was about this. The author wrote about a similar story where a company he worked at changed as it grew and layoffs were made. He concluded with some really good points: | I came away from the experience unable to commit myself to a company. In part this was an ethical stance: who controls the company can change, and change quickly. So loyalty to a company meant committing to follow people who shouldn't be followed, not because authority is inherently bad, but because in most companies authority cannot be rescinded by the workers in its power. | But it was also an emotional reaction: I'd put a lot of myself into my job, only to see my work—and my friends' work—destroyed in an incompetent power grab. I didn't want to go through that again. | The thing about loyalty, though, is that it's motivating: you give your loyalty because you want something or someone to succeed. So if you're past the point of pure survival, where do you find motivation if not in loyalty? | Eventually I came round to solidarity, a thornier path than loyalty. Loyalty is simple, because it starts with an answer: your country, your cause, your company, your friends—above all. Solidarity is complex, because it starts with a question: beyond yourself, beyond your friends, beyond your cause, beyond your country, what ought you do to help everyone? ¹ https://codewithoutrules.com/softwareclown/ https://codewithoutrules.com/softwareclown/

ElBarto 8y ago
Loyalty can only exist between individuals. Never be loyal to a company because a company will never be loyal to you.
- mandelbrotwurst 8y ago
  Loyalty can exist without reciprocity.
  - lostcolony 8y ago
    Yes, but should it?
  - ElBarto 8y ago
    Which is madness in the business world, and perhaps outside of it as well.
  - ben509 8y ago
    Loyalty is specifically distinct from reciprocity.
- Raphmedia 8y ago
  Fun fact: loyalty to the employer is often considered as being written into the law of the province I live in. https://www.educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/being-loyal-your-employer https://www.educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/being-loyal-your-empl... | 2088. The employee is bound not only to perform his work with prudence and diligence, but also to act faithfully and honestly and not use any confidential information he obtains in the performance or in the course of his work. | These obligations continue for a reasonable time after the contract terminates and permanently where the information concerns the reputation and privacy of others.
  - dv_dt 8y ago
    Not disclosing confidential information is more ethics than loyalty. That that may fall under a legal definition of loyalty in some areas, but I think in more common parlance that behavior would just be professionalism. Even then there has to be some degree of judiciousness between what a company might consider confidential and what is just industry knowledge. And over time, a lot of what might be held confidential, becomes common practice too.
  - ElBarto 8y ago
    Yes but that's "legal loyalty", basically being honest, which is not the same as e.g. making efforts or sacrifices out of loyalty.
    - Raphmedia 8y ago
      Agreed, that's why I worded it as "is often considered". The law being a bit vague, employers often present it as employees needing to be personally loyal. The law asks one to "act faithfully". Faithfully can easily be used as a synonym for devoted and some employers ask a religious devotion to the company.
      - ElBarto 8y ago
        I can assure you that the law is very clear and established. Employees are often not very knowledgeable about it, though. And in any case some jurisdictions have employment at will...
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  The way loyalty has always worked is that your first loyalty is to individuals, like yourself, your family, boss and immediate coworkers, and your second loyalty is to the collective you all belong to, like your company, extended family and neighborhood. People who can't recognize second loyalties can't be trusted, and need to be weeded out of an organization before it hits hard times, otherwise they just won't be able to be relied on. Your company isn't just some faceless entity interested only in profits. It's face is all of you and it exists to keep all of you fed and with a roof over your head. A company with a headcount of 40 people can provide for 200+ individuals. All 40 of those will work together to bail out the company because the company provides for themselves and their families. It's simply immature to not recognize that. You shouldn't be expected to choose your second loyalty over your first, except in very rare situations. But those situations exist and you should recognize them. When it's crunch time, it's crunch time. Crunch time all the time demands a re-evaluation of priorities, but so long as it's relatively rare, put in the hours and build solidarity with the people you're working hard with. You shouldn't make your second loyalty your first, is how the sentiment should be expressed.
  - kryogen1c 8y ago
    I've never researched company and interpersonal loyalty, but this rings exactly true for me. It is possible to be only be loyal to each other and destroy your company, a la tragedy of the commons. Loyalty to coworkers naturally includes loyalty to the company, because (ostensibly) if the company does better, everyone working there does better. I don't understand the impulse to steal or skimp or be lazy. It seems short sighted and damaging.
    - closetohome 8y ago
      > if the company does better, everyone working there does better Is the theory, but rarely the reality. The truth is that at any company of a certain size or larger, you're a replaceable cog, and nothing you do - positive or negative - will affect the trajectory of the company. It's easy to become cynical in that environment.
      - 8y ago
- SonicSoul 8y ago
  this seems overly cynical. companies are absolutely loyal and stand by their employees. that match is rare, just as it is rare to find another person that will stay with you through good and bad times
mavelikara 8y ago
Thanks for the quote. As the sibling comment points out, be loyal to individuals. Also, if you are rank and file employee, caring for the industry more than the company produces better long-term results.
- mikepurvis 8y ago
  Caring for your industry also produces things like open source contributions, conference talks, and other forms of collaboration which are arguably of greater benefit to your personal career than they are to your current employer.
  - humbermetallic 8y ago
    Agreed, there is a huge personal benefit when you're actively participating in companies evolution.
new12345 8y ago
In essence, its essential that we as software professionals work in company that's really motivates us and hence can call us to grow, otherwise we would soon find ourself getting left behind in fast paced software world. Seen this happening to experienced developers in my company.
- tspike 8y ago
  Or: you recognize that you are a disposable commodity, accept that fact, and focus your growth not along dimensions that benefit your company, but strictly in ways that benefit you and your loved ones.
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    You are only valuable if you can align those well with company goals. That’s the way I see it: I try to find employers where the dot product of their desire vector and my desire vector is high and where the dot product of their desire vector and my capability vector is high. Not just the basis vectors but the actual value. So far it’s worked. But I haven’t had the decades of experience yet to reflect on it.
    - irrational 8y ago
      >You are only valuable if you can align those well with company goals. As I see it, that's my manager's job. He's always blathering on about aligning with this or with that, but I have more than enough work to keep me busy and if he wants me to work on something else, he will tell me. This has worked well for me for 2 decades and I'm more than satisfied with my benefits and compensation that I'm happy to just keep plugging along.
      - scarejunba 8y ago
        Haha, I imagine neither of our experiences has sufficient predictive power as to what works. Ah well, let’s hope the next decades don’t teach us both too many hard lessons about our respective philosophies.
gadders 8y ago
As they say in Boxing, if you want loyalty, buy a dog.
hnuser355 8y ago
I don’t get why people don’t realize that we’re all playing capitalism and it doesn’t make sense to tie your hands behind your back for the sake of some company that doesn’t care about you. One thing to pass up some profits to be a more decent person or whatever, another to do it for an abstract entity that would happily toss you onto the street for a few dollars were it able to.
gcb0 8y ago
That sounds like content i would love to read, just not in email list subscription format. So lame.

ElBarto 8y ago

Loyalty can only exist between individuals. Never be loyal to a company because a company will never be loyal to you.

mandelbrotwurst 8y ago
Loyalty can exist without reciprocity.
- lostcolony 8y ago
  Yes, but should it?
- ElBarto 8y ago
  Which is madness in the business world, and perhaps outside of it as well.
- ben509 8y ago
  Loyalty is specifically distinct from reciprocity.
Raphmedia 8y ago
Fun fact: loyalty to the employer is often considered as being written into the law of the province I live in. https://www.educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/being-loyal-your-employer https://www.educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/being-loyal-your-empl... | 2088. The employee is bound not only to perform his work with prudence and diligence, but also to act faithfully and honestly and not use any confidential information he obtains in the performance or in the course of his work. | These obligations continue for a reasonable time after the contract terminates and permanently where the information concerns the reputation and privacy of others.
- dv_dt 8y ago
  Not disclosing confidential information is more ethics than loyalty. That that may fall under a legal definition of loyalty in some areas, but I think in more common parlance that behavior would just be professionalism. Even then there has to be some degree of judiciousness between what a company might consider confidential and what is just industry knowledge. And over time, a lot of what might be held confidential, becomes common practice too.
- ElBarto 8y ago
  Yes but that's "legal loyalty", basically being honest, which is not the same as e.g. making efforts or sacrifices out of loyalty.
  - Raphmedia 8y ago
    Agreed, that's why I worded it as "is often considered". The law being a bit vague, employers often present it as employees needing to be personally loyal. The law asks one to "act faithfully". Faithfully can easily be used as a synonym for devoted and some employers ask a religious devotion to the company.
    - ElBarto 8y ago
      I can assure you that the law is very clear and established. Employees are often not very knowledgeable about it, though. And in any case some jurisdictions have employment at will...
vinceguidry 8y ago
The way loyalty has always worked is that your first loyalty is to individuals, like yourself, your family, boss and immediate coworkers, and your second loyalty is to the collective you all belong to, like your company, extended family and neighborhood. People who can't recognize second loyalties can't be trusted, and need to be weeded out of an organization before it hits hard times, otherwise they just won't be able to be relied on. Your company isn't just some faceless entity interested only in profits. It's face is all of you and it exists to keep all of you fed and with a roof over your head. A company with a headcount of 40 people can provide for 200+ individuals. All 40 of those will work together to bail out the company because the company provides for themselves and their families. It's simply immature to not recognize that. You shouldn't be expected to choose your second loyalty over your first, except in very rare situations. But those situations exist and you should recognize them. When it's crunch time, it's crunch time. Crunch time all the time demands a re-evaluation of priorities, but so long as it's relatively rare, put in the hours and build solidarity with the people you're working hard with. You shouldn't make your second loyalty your first, is how the sentiment should be expressed.
- kryogen1c 8y ago
  I've never researched company and interpersonal loyalty, but this rings exactly true for me. It is possible to be only be loyal to each other and destroy your company, a la tragedy of the commons. Loyalty to coworkers naturally includes loyalty to the company, because (ostensibly) if the company does better, everyone working there does better. I don't understand the impulse to steal or skimp or be lazy. It seems short sighted and damaging.
  - closetohome 8y ago
    > if the company does better, everyone working there does better Is the theory, but rarely the reality. The truth is that at any company of a certain size or larger, you're a replaceable cog, and nothing you do - positive or negative - will affect the trajectory of the company. It's easy to become cynical in that environment.
    - 8y ago
SonicSoul 8y ago
this seems overly cynical. companies are absolutely loyal and stand by their employees. that match is rare, just as it is rare to find another person that will stay with you through good and bad times

mavelikara 8y ago

Thanks for the quote. As the sibling comment points out, be loyal to individuals. Also, if you are rank and file employee, caring for the industry more than the company produces better long-term results.

mikepurvis 8y ago
Caring for your industry also produces things like open source contributions, conference talks, and other forms of collaboration which are arguably of greater benefit to your personal career than they are to your current employer.
- humbermetallic 8y ago
  Agreed, there is a huge personal benefit when you're actively participating in companies evolution.

new12345 8y ago

In essence, its essential that we as software professionals work in company that's really motivates us and hence can call us to grow, otherwise we would soon find ourself getting left behind in fast paced software world. Seen this happening to experienced developers in my company.

tspike 8y ago
Or: you recognize that you are a disposable commodity, accept that fact, and focus your growth not along dimensions that benefit your company, but strictly in ways that benefit you and your loved ones.
- scarejunba 8y ago
  You are only valuable if you can align those well with company goals. That’s the way I see it: I try to find employers where the dot product of their desire vector and my desire vector is high and where the dot product of their desire vector and my capability vector is high. Not just the basis vectors but the actual value. So far it’s worked. But I haven’t had the decades of experience yet to reflect on it.
  - irrational 8y ago
    >You are only valuable if you can align those well with company goals. As I see it, that's my manager's job. He's always blathering on about aligning with this or with that, but I have more than enough work to keep me busy and if he wants me to work on something else, he will tell me. This has worked well for me for 2 decades and I'm more than satisfied with my benefits and compensation that I'm happy to just keep plugging along.
    - scarejunba 8y ago
      Haha, I imagine neither of our experiences has sufficient predictive power as to what works. Ah well, let’s hope the next decades don’t teach us both too many hard lessons about our respective philosophies.

gadders 8y ago

As they say in Boxing, if you want loyalty, buy a dog.

hnuser355 8y ago

I don’t get why people don’t realize that we’re all playing capitalism and it doesn’t make sense to tie your hands behind your back for the sake of some company that doesn’t care about you. One thing to pass up some profits to be a more decent person or whatever, another to do it for an abstract entity that would happily toss you onto the street for a few dollars were it able to.

gcb0 8y ago

That sounds like content i would love to read, just not in email list subscription format. So lame.