38 ms·

Amazon Selects New York City and Northern Virginia for New Headquarters

224 points by appwiz 8y ago

refurb 8y ago
Let the real estate speculation begin!! https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazons-move-to-long-island-city-sparks-condo-frenzy-1542116117 https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazons-move-to-long-island-cit...
- melling 8y ago
  Grab a subway map of Queens. The good thing about NYC is that no one needs to drive to work.
  - jfasi 8y ago
    The E/M/F/R tunnels are already some of the most congested, most delayed, least pleasant segments in the entire city. As much as I welcome Amazon's move, I don't envy the poor suckers who have to ride in and out of Queens.
    - ghaff 8y ago
      The "interesting" thing about that location is that it actually isn't especially especially convenient for commutes to/from places where young well-paid techies would normally choose to live.
      - nickdandakis 8y ago
        Out of curiosity, where do you think young well-paid techies live in the city? Because I'm a young well-paid techie, and I live off of the G line in Brooklyn, which this move would definitely affect.
        mo1ok 8y ago
        Greenpoint, bushwick, wburg, bed-study, park slope, Clinton hill, LES.
        infinite8s 8y ago
        Greenpoint is directly south of LIC. You can walk there in 30 minutes.
    - mcgannon2007 8y ago
      I assume this is a big incentive to improve those lines and Amazon will hopefully lobby for such. Similar to their support for public transportation in Seattle.
    - jcampbell1 8y ago
      Living in the west side rail yards, and commuting to LIC would be a very pleasant commute in the morning and not so bad during the afternoon. It is surprisingly convenient the largest private real estate project in the US is conviniently located to Amazon's new HQ.
      - melling 8y ago
        I’d also look east of Long Island City. Probably cheaper than Manhattan. Pick a bad area that will gentrify. The MTA will be able to run more trains once they modernized their signaling equipment. They are using 100 year old equipment: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mta-why-has-the-nyc-subway-gone-off-the-rails-60-minutes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mta-why-has-the-nyc-subway-gone...
    - samfriedman 8y ago
      And the alternative is getting the G up from Brooklyn...
  - notyourday 8y ago
    I live here. LIC subway access is terrible. Not driving to work in NYC means you either work in Manhattan or you are taking a bus, probably more than one.
- saalweachter 8y ago
  Yeah, I'm going to buy up all the cheap land in NYC and sell it for a massive profit!!!
mikeash 8y ago
What the heck is “National Landing”? I’ve lived in this area for over a decade and that’s the first time I’ve heard the name.
- 6DM 8y ago
  "National Landing is the newly defined interconnected and walkable neighborhood that encompasses Crystal City, the eastern portion of Pentagon City and the northern portion of Potomac Yard. " https://nationallanding.com/ https://nationallanding.com/
  - mikeash 8y ago
    Ok, so Amazon is trying to declare these three areas to be one big neighborhood with a fancy new name. They certainly don’t think small! I don’t like the name but otherwise they make it sound pretty good.
    - 6DM 8y ago
      Amazon didn't give the area's the name. The communities came together and gave the area a name as a kind of branding. "National Landing was coined in the joint Northern Virginia pitch to Amazon at the start of its search process last year." https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-13/amazon-picks-non-existent-neighborhood-in-virginia-for-offices https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-13/amazon-pi...
- dublinben 8y ago
  It's not just you. Apparently they decided to create a new name for this announcement. https://www.washingtonian.com/2018/11/13/did-amazon-just-rename-crystal-city/ https://www.washingtonian.com/2018/11/13/did-amazon-just-ren...
  - bsimpson 8y ago
    That explains why Google Maps had no idea WTF it was.
baseballMan 8y ago
Knew that they wouldn't pick Toronto - Trump would have blown a gasket
- Ensorceled 8y ago
  We lost the bidding war. Seeing what concessions the other cities coughed up ... I'm maybe glad we didn't "win".
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  Toronto dodged a bullet.
  - m23khan 8y ago
    No, it didn't dodge a bullet, it lost the competition and hence the opportunity. Unless you are a subject matter expert and know exactly how this benefits Toronto (In which case then, I apologize). By virtue of moving into Toronto, all Canadian cities starting from Pickering/Oshawa all the way down to Hamilton/Waterloo would have seen a boost overtime to real-estate and hence towards economic activity - remember cities like Hamilton and Barrie are struggling to attract highly-educated / high-income residents and this would have given them better odds. All in all, loss of potential income for the Canadian economy.
    - prolikewh0a 8y ago
      I live in Seattle and have lived in Seattle. I know exactly the effects this has, and it's not beneficial except to the already wealthy. Great if you're rich, terrible if you're anything other than rich (hint: most people aren't rich).
- dunpeal 8y ago
  Kinda pointless to open a huge office for recruitment, where virtually all your top talent is trying to get to the US to benefit from far better employment terms and compensation.
- bepotts 8y ago
isaacdl 8y ago
Wouldn't you call two new offices that are smaller than the headquarters "satellite offices"? It really does feel like Amazon successfully played a lot of municipalities against each other to try and extract the biggest concessions, knowing all along that it didn't make sense to try and hire 50000 people in a decade in any one location. I know that's how the game is played, but it's still feels a little disingenuous.
- tomschlick 8y ago
  > Wouldn't you call two new offices that are smaller than the headquarters "satellite offices"? They could be divisional HQs, as in Alexa HQ'd in NYC and AWS in DC.
  - fooker 8y ago
    If they do that, that is eventually going to be used as ammunition for dismantling them.
    - pc86 8y ago
      Fine, I'll bite. How?
      - fooker 8y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System#Post-breakup_structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System#Pos... Note the geographically oriented split.
  - dunpeal 8y ago
    But they won't be. Can you imagine Amazon hiring 25k employees for just one project like Alexa? Also, the whole point of the new offices is to aid recruitment. Limiting particular offices to just one skillset goes totally against that. No, these offices will be smaller than the Seattle HQ, but at half the size, you can expect them to be quite diverse. They will not be a "single project" office.
kodablah 8y ago
Tax kickbacks of $48k/job in NY and $22k/job in VA wth average salary of $150k/yr. Also $325mil in NY and $23mil in VA for just occupying the space. All well below the projected billions in direct investment and tax amounts. Not sure whether worth it or not, but it's all around economic growth which I see as a good thing in general. We can argue about public funds and growing pains, but this problem is better than the opposite problem. If you are in the area and oppose along with the majority of your peers, say so at the polls. But I wouldn't be surprised to find that, outside of pro-tax/anti-big-corp circles, this is gleefully welcomed.
- rb808 8y ago
  > $48k/job in NY That is over 10 years, so is like $5k a year.
  - noer 8y ago
    even then, assuming 15k jobs in New York is $75MM/yr, which is a lot of money.
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > assuming 15k jobs in New York is $75MM/yr, which is a lot of money They'll probably pay it back in payroll taxes. The subsidy effect is an unfair tipping of the scales in favor of large companies. But mass has its benefits. You can't renovate LIC in the hope that businesses will move there. An anchor employer underwrites infrastructure with broader social benefits without requiring the city to co-ordinate lots of smaller employers. (The follow-on question being, how do we make such co-ordination easier.)
      - gwright 8y ago
        What happened to equality under the law? I hate these corporate ad-hoc tax deals. Create a rationale tax policy and apply it to everyone.
    - bilbo0s 8y ago
SippinLean 8y ago
> Long Island City is a mixed-use community where arts and industry intersect It's mostly empty warehouses, housing projects, and luxury condos. There's very little in terms of culture or even basic needs, like grocery stores. > Long Island City has some of the best transit access in New York City, with 8 subway lines, 13 bus lines, commuter rail, a bike-sharing service, and ferries serving the area Realistically it's the densely overcrowded 7 train, getting worse each year, with no relief in sight. Once the L shuts down in 2019 the G will be absolutely overrun. > and LaGuardia and JFK airports are in close proximity Getting to LGA involves taking a train to a bus, by car it's a breeze, JFK is an hour away by train.
- puzzle 8y ago
  If a lot of Amazon employees end up living in Manhattan, they'll be doing a reverse commute, which is probably a good thing for everyone. As to LGA, remember that it can't have direct flights to the West Coast (e.g.: Seattle...) for historical reasons. Maybe this will help rectify the situation.
  - donretag 8y ago
    There are several factors why LGA has a 1500 miles flight radius restriction (with Denver being the only grandfathered exception), but the primary one is due to the length of the runways unable to cope with larger planes on cross-country routes.
- jkaplowitz 8y ago
  The 7 and the G are not as important if the Amazon people live in many parts of Queens instead of Manhattan or hipster parts of Brooklyn. As I'm sure many will, since it's currently one of the cheaper areas of the city (Astoria and LIC aside). LGA would be a quick cab or Uber ride for most people, well within Amazon employee affordability range. JFK would be comparatively quick by cab/Uber or yeah about 60 minutes by transit. That's par for the course for major metro area airports, certainly including Amazon's hometown of Seattle.
- lic-defender 8y ago
acheron 8y ago
Interesting to see the Virginia state ("commonwealth") "incentives". At the state level, the original VA pitch was out near Dulles (the currently state-owned CIT land). Pitches for Arlington et al. were done by the county as far as I know. Presumably once Amazon zeroed in on the Arlington area the state was willing to go along. (Apple has supposedly been in talks with the state about the CIT land as well, just in a less public fashion than Amazon, so I assume something is still going to go in there soon, whether Apple or something else.)
throwaway2048 8y ago
This entire competition was an obvious sham to try to equivocate really desperate cities willing to give basically anything to have a major tech company headquarters, to the inevitable choice amazon was going to make of california or the coastal northeast, so they could extract maximum concessions. Its disgusting this worked as well as it did, $48k/job in tax concessions from NYC and $22k/job from VA, expect to see a lot more of this in the future. Hopefully governments wake up and realize its a race to the bottom that advantages megacorps to such a point that having them is barely worth it, while at the same time hurting local businesses. EDIT: the tax deductions are one time, not per year, i mixed that up.
- differentView 8y ago
  What do you mean by "hurting local businesses"? Wouldn't more highly paid workers in the area be good for local businesses?
  - dannyr 8y ago
    Tell that to San Francisco where it gave Twitter tax break to be located in mid-Market. It didn't revitalize that neighborhood like the city was hoping for.
  - TuringNYC 8y ago
    I was similarly confused by this...its not like its a Walmart superstore undurcutting the local mom-n-pop shop. That said, perhaps the fear is "over-cutting" -- that HQ2 slurps up top talent from local tech businesses and overbids salaries. I can totally see that happening, especially with the only-handful of truly high-tech businesses in the Northern Virginia community. This is a bad thing short term and a good thing long term.
    - slededit 8y ago
      They are quite literally the WalMart of the web. Although that sort of damage has already been done.
  - 8y ago
rb808 8y ago
If only we had a tunnel from Seacaucus to Grand Central. Thanks Chris.
Cyclone_ 8y ago
Can't believe how many subsidies they got, to me it's a question of fairness, why should we subsidize them, but not others? I get that they are doing the community a service by creating high paying jobs, but there certainly have been negative sides to what they've done (gentrification, poor working conditions for many employees in their warehouses).
- phoenixstrike 8y ago
  How is gentrification negative?
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    If you rent.
  - bsanr 8y ago
    Drives up rent. Breaks up existing, stable (if often impoverished) communities. Increased, concentrated development can have a negative environmental impact.
    - matchbok 8y ago
      Nobody is entitled to live in a certain area for a certain price. Such things lead to distorted markets and tons of other issues.
      - bsanr 8y ago
        So do the developer incentives that have driven urban redevelopment for the last 2 decades. Hence, in part, the glut of luxury apartments and the ever-tightening affordable housing market.
        matchbok 8y ago
        Nothing wrong with luxury apartments. Today's luxury is tomorrow's regular housing.
rb808 8y ago
> Hiring at both the new headquarters will begin in 2019. Do they have buildings leased? I presumed they were going to build. How can they start hiring already?
- rootbear 8y ago
  There is a lot of empty office space in Crystal City. They can move in almost immediately. They can then start figuring out if they want to build something new.
- SeanBoocock 8y ago
  Part of the rumors for the Arlington location included Amazon leasing older offices for the initial group of employees as they built out space: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/amazon-in-advanced-talks-about-putting-hq2-in-northern-virginia-those-close-to-process-say/2018/11/02/9be831d6-d7c0-11e8-aeb7-ddcad4a0a54e_story.html?utm_term=.aa3f196126b3 https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/amazon-in-advanced-talk...
- gautamnarula 8y ago
  I've heard speculation that Amazon might take over the Citi building in LIC, which Citi has been steadily vacating over the years.
lbarrow 8y ago
Newly elected Democrats in the NY state legislature might block the NYC Amazon subsidies and put the funds into student debt relief instead: https://capitalandmain.com/will-new-york-fund-amazon-subsidies-or-student-debt-relief-1113 https://capitalandmain.com/will-new-york-fund-amazon-subsidi...
- FiveSquared 8y ago
  Good. Studen loasns are BS and it will help stop more traffic
  - devmunchies 8y ago
    not good. govt paying off student loans just makes them a sure bet and validates the behavior. Govt has the power to allow you to default, but why don't they?
    - blindwatchmaker 8y ago
      Excessive rents and debts are a drain on consumer spending and ultimately harm the economy. The root cause isn't greedy students wanting an education (weird way to think about it), but tuition costs ballooning out of control. It's also increasingly harder and harder to default on student debt, with states forcing extreme measures such as wage garnishing and taking away people's driving licenses: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/business/student-loans-licenses.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/business/student-loans-li... Fully expect to see debtor's prisons back in vogue this century.
      - Carlton87 8y ago
        The root cause are greedy loan providers that know payment back is a sure bet. My 50,000 foot view of the problem is that it is far to easy to obtain a huge sum of money to go to school for a career with no job prospects. My solution would be to factor in degree and ability to repay, making loans much harder to get. Also, I would revoke many degree paths from the ability to get approved federal loans.
schnevets 8y ago
As a New Yorker, I am super disappointed that they chose Long Island City. There were contenders where this stimulus could have been a paradigm shift. Instead, it's just a drop in the bucket for a city that is already growing recklessly. My vote was for Newark, personally. Plenty of office space; access to NJIT, Rutgers, and Princeton; and good public transit that connects directly into NYC. Bezos and co. could have done some real good, but instead they will just be contributing to New York's biggest gripes (unsustainable subways, housing shortages, and an aggregation of labor into a few metropolitan areas).
- notyourwork 8y ago
  Seattle residents send their condolences.
- patrickmay 8y ago
  I was really hoping for Raleigh and/or Dallas. Instead, Amazon picked two places where the cost of living is worse than Seattle.
  - tjbarkley 8y ago
    Yeah, but some of the CEO's houses are in these two areas.
  - amyjess 8y ago
    As a Dallasite, I've been hoping we won't get it because it would send our housing prices through the stratosphere and ruin traffic for a generation. From what I've seen, the reaction to this news on /r/Dallas is very positive. We don't want Amazon here. (Though I figured it was going to be NoVa from the start. I was just terrified I'd be wrong.)
  - akhilcacharya 8y ago
    I'm from Raleigh but I"m not convinced Raleigh-area schools have the talent required and willing.
    - 8y ago
notJim 8y ago
Hard to escape the conclusion that this whole thing was just a way to grab tax cuts for places where Amazon already has a presence.
imgabe 8y ago
Both cities should pull their subsidy packages. Amazon negotiated in bad faith, under false pretenses. The conditions under which any subsidies were offered no longer apply.
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  Could you state what the false pretenses were, and how those conditions no longer apply? All you have here is a dogmatic assertion with no supporting information. Often that is done by people who have strong beliefs but no basis for them, so if you have a basis, stating it can prevent you from getting lumped in with the "dogmatic unreality" people.
  - imgabe 8y ago
    Did you read any article about this at all over the past year? The original proposal was for a single HQ2 in one city, not half of one in two cities. Are you just an Amazon shill who jumps in to try and suppress any criticism of them?
    - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
      > Are you just an Amazon shill who jumps in to try and suppress any criticism of them? No, I'm not. Are you the kind of commenter who accuses everyone who disagrees with you of being a shill, so that you can control the conversation? (There's at least as much evidence of that than there is of me being a shill...)
      - imgabe 8y ago
        There have been stories about this for months. It's reasonable to assume that most people reading and commenting on them are familiar with the history of this long running story and the well publicized last minute change in the terms of the agreement by Amazon in the last week. If you are honestly unaware of this and need it explained to you, then in the future take some time to familiarize yourself with the context of what's going on or ask some questions before you jump in and start insulting people.
jesseryoung 8y ago
Unless I'm misreading this, it looks like Nashville got the best deal > Amazon will receive performance-based direct incentives of up to $102 million based on the company creating 5,000 jobs with an average wage of over $150,000 in Nashville. This is a pretty big deal for Nashville, and costing them only $12,000 per job is a pretty big win.
- Xcelerate 8y ago
  The University of Tennessee ranks well in supply chain & logistics, so it makes sense. I believe Lyft opened a similar operations office in Nashville. Unfortunately, Nashville could really use strong tech jobs as well, which the state is sorely lacking. I wish Amazon had chosen Nashville as one of the main HQs.
  - bdcravens 8y ago
    > The University of Tennessee ranks well in supply chain & logistics Fedex is based in Memphis, so this makes sense
- bdcravens 8y ago
  Proximity to Fedex's headquarters and hub probably played a large role.
- vadym909 8y ago
  Nashville makes sense for anyone doing distribution. Great airport with tons of planes, pilots, distribution center workers already there for the largest couriers. Also because you can reach 60% of Americans by road in 1-2 days and efficient hub and spoke distribution for air freight.
  - siruncledrew 8y ago
    Fedex uses Memphis as their distribution hub, so Amazon is taking a similar path it seems.
- ap24 8y ago
drfuchs 8y ago
Since each city is only receiving half the benefit they thought they were bidding on, presumably they’ll each get to cut their bids in half — the subsidies, tax abatements, infrastructure spending promises, etc.? But I haven’t seen any notice of this in the news coverage. [rerun]
avryhof 8y ago
That's right, Andy. Change your name now. Amazon Cuomo
Simulacra 8y ago
Ahhhh crap. Here goes housing prices... We were really hoping to buy something next year :(
mrburkins 8y ago
I still don't understand why NYC gave up so much by way of incentives and subsidies. With things the way they are, seemingly Amazon needed NYC, way more than NYC needed amazon.
gayandproud 8y ago
Hope all you want, but a good half+ of the HQ2 hires will be minorities. Not a lot of minorities want to live in a deep south or Texas region due to racism, stand-your-ground, etc. Same thing for gays. If you want to hope for diverse knowledge businesses opening in Dallas, perhaps start with pushing for equality. I can think of a thousand examples, but here is the latest: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/07/us/dallas-police-shooting-botham-shem-jean.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/07/us/dallas-police-shooting... Dallas Police Officer Kills Her Neighbor in His Apartment, Saying She Mistook It for Her Own Cop comes home to wrong apartment and kills black resident in that apartment. The really shocking thing -- widespread support amongst whites in support of the officer!
- justtopost 8y ago
  Preach all you want, but the south is no more homophobic than any other region. Your own hefty bias only muddies the waters.
  - magic_beans 8y ago
    Ouch. This is not true at all.
  - TulliusCicero 8y ago
    > the south is no more homophobic than any other region. You can't possibly believe this is actually true. You think the South isn't any more homophobic than, say, the west coast? Really? Here's some data, the first % is "Homosexuality should be accepted", the second is "Homosexuality should be discouraged": http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-homosexuality/by/state/ http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/vi... First, a few states from the deep South: Alabama - 41% :: 52% Arkansas - 45% :: 47% Georgia - 55% :: 38% Mississippi - 40% :: 54% South Carolina - 51% :: 42% Now the west coast: California - 69% :: 24% Oregon - 66% :: 25% Washington - 69% :: 27% I lived in Alabama for a couple years. People are definitely more socially conservative there, and that does lend itself to homophobia. Not everyone who's a social conservative, of course, but it's definitely much more common than with social liberals.
  - 8y ago
alehul 8y ago
Why do we give Amazon subsidies but not small businesses, who altogether provide over 50% of the jobs in America? The reason, as I understand it, is because Amazon as a single corporate entity provides far more jobs and holds more power. Following that: Wouldn't the small businesses, due to our anti-trust regulations, actually be considered a cartel if they tried to negotiate as a group and gain the same tax advantages that Amazon has? So, with that in mind, don't we have some very arbitrary laws? If I could buy up a few small businesses and negotiate with them as pawns, but without a common owner, it's anti-trust behavior? Maybe I'm misunderstanding this; IANAL, but would love to hear someone's opinion. Though game theory would likely prevent their continued cooperation, it seems quite unfair for small businesses that are unable, even in theory, to collectively negotiate on the same scale as Amazon.
- arrosenberg 8y ago
  Also not a lawyer, but cartel behavior usually refers to price-fixing and other anti-competitive behavior. Small businesses banding together the way you described would just be lobbying and already happens frequently. Amazon should be investigated for anti-competitive practices, and their ability to negotiate this kind of a circus is certainly an indication of that. The problem has been two-fold - 1. The Sherman act is over 100 years old and was written to target 19th century trusts like Standard Oil and the railroads. These need to be updated to reflect new types of models of trusts and conglomeration (and accumulation of power) that have developed. 2. Enforcement - the SEC and FTC are largely toothless and everyone knows it. If you are a company that can afford a team of lawyers, its unlikely you will be penalized in a way that actually hurts.
  - asr 8y ago
    The SEC does not enforce the antitrust laws. Do you mean the DOJ? If you are going to take unsubstantiated potshots at government agencies you would sound more credible if you at least picked the right agencies. * * * On the substantive question here, I agree that small businesses already band together to lobby the government for special treatment. It's not an antitrust violation to ask the government for things, even if you couldn't get together and do those things directly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noerr%E2%80%93Pennington_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noerr%E2%80%93Pennington_doctr....
adamqureshi 8y ago
I grew up in QUEENS. Well LIC is a melting pot. The amazon workers can live in sunnyside queens or greenpoint brooklyn. I think with AMAZON coming to LIC that whole area is gonna light up. Also lets not forget Roosevelt Island is right there. You'll see new development in Roosvelt island. Buildings have been going up in LIC for the last 10 years. You have Jackson Hights. Sunnyside, greenpoint, also the boogie down bronx has places to live,. so the transit system is gonna be PACKED. the train is always late in NYC / Queens. LIRR will also see increased traffic from Jamaica to hunters point or woodside. You can get LIRR from Forrest hills or key Gardens. This will allow for new eating places to open and other small business will pop up to meet the needs of the 25k people they plan to hire. I will be looking for business opportunities my self! :-)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Rainymood 8y ago
Who bended over the furthest for their new corporate overlords?
ryanwaggoner 8y ago
Wow, the gatekeepers in /r/nashville are probably apoplectic.
LiterallyDoge 8y ago
Is there really any good reason to hate Amazon for this? It sounds like they gave an offer, and the offer was good, so people wanted it. I like freedom. This sounds like freedom. Is it not?
ourmandave 8y ago
As usual, the Onion nails it... New York City Announces Subway Just For Amazon Employees Now https://www.theonion.com/new-york-city-announces-subway-just-for-amazon-employee-1830418104 https://www.theonion.com/new-york-city-announces-subway-just...
taohansen 8y ago
Why didn’t anyone ask the residents if they wanted a megacorporation to move into their neighborhoods? Amazon insisted on absolute secrecy moving forward and elected officials went right along with it. Queens residents are outraged by this news. No one asked them. How is this democracy at work?
ctvo 8y ago
The easiest way to think about these HQs for me: - Seattle - retail, logistics - Crystal City - AWS - New York City - Amazon services for advertising, publishing, media I would bet Seattle sees those roles slowly pull towards their respective HQs. It's already happening with advertising and NYC as far as I can tell from their job listings. And if in the future, for some reason, Amazon is required to break up, this would make it a little less messy.
damnson 8y ago
I haven't read anyone citing Google also setting up shop in NYC. This might be way off but could Amazon and Google be competing for political influence in NYC?

224 points by appwiz 8y ago

Let the real estate speculation begin!! https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazons-move-to-long-island-city-sparks-condo-frenzy-1542116117 https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazons-move-to-long-island-cit...

melling 8y ago
Grab a subway map of Queens. The good thing about NYC is that no one needs to drive to work.
- jfasi 8y ago
  The E/M/F/R tunnels are already some of the most congested, most delayed, least pleasant segments in the entire city. As much as I welcome Amazon's move, I don't envy the poor suckers who have to ride in and out of Queens.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    The "interesting" thing about that location is that it actually isn't especially especially convenient for commutes to/from places where young well-paid techies would normally choose to live.
    - nickdandakis 8y ago
      Out of curiosity, where do you think young well-paid techies live in the city? Because I'm a young well-paid techie, and I live off of the G line in Brooklyn, which this move would definitely affect.
      - mo1ok 8y ago
        Greenpoint, bushwick, wburg, bed-study, park slope, Clinton hill, LES.
        infinite8s 8y ago
        Greenpoint is directly south of LIC. You can walk there in 30 minutes.
  - mcgannon2007 8y ago
    I assume this is a big incentive to improve those lines and Amazon will hopefully lobby for such. Similar to their support for public transportation in Seattle.
  - jcampbell1 8y ago
    Living in the west side rail yards, and commuting to LIC would be a very pleasant commute in the morning and not so bad during the afternoon. It is surprisingly convenient the largest private real estate project in the US is conviniently located to Amazon's new HQ.
    - melling 8y ago
      I’d also look east of Long Island City. Probably cheaper than Manhattan. Pick a bad area that will gentrify. The MTA will be able to run more trains once they modernized their signaling equipment. They are using 100 year old equipment: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mta-why-has-the-nyc-subway-gone-off-the-rails-60-minutes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mta-why-has-the-nyc-subway-gone...
  - samfriedman 8y ago
    And the alternative is getting the G up from Brooklyn...
- notyourday 8y ago
  I live here. LIC subway access is terrible. Not driving to work in NYC means you either work in Manhattan or you are taking a bus, probably more than one.
saalweachter 8y ago
Yeah, I'm going to buy up all the cheap land in NYC and sell it for a massive profit!!!

mikeash 8y ago

What the heck is “National Landing”? I’ve lived in this area for over a decade and that’s the first time I’ve heard the name.

6DM 8y ago
"National Landing is the newly defined interconnected and walkable neighborhood that encompasses Crystal City, the eastern portion of Pentagon City and the northern portion of Potomac Yard. " https://nationallanding.com/ https://nationallanding.com/
- mikeash 8y ago
  Ok, so Amazon is trying to declare these three areas to be one big neighborhood with a fancy new name. They certainly don’t think small! I don’t like the name but otherwise they make it sound pretty good.
  - 6DM 8y ago
    Amazon didn't give the area's the name. The communities came together and gave the area a name as a kind of branding. "National Landing was coined in the joint Northern Virginia pitch to Amazon at the start of its search process last year." https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-13/amazon-picks-non-existent-neighborhood-in-virginia-for-offices https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-13/amazon-pi...
dublinben 8y ago
It's not just you. Apparently they decided to create a new name for this announcement. https://www.washingtonian.com/2018/11/13/did-amazon-just-rename-crystal-city/ https://www.washingtonian.com/2018/11/13/did-amazon-just-ren...
- bsimpson 8y ago
  That explains why Google Maps had no idea WTF it was.

baseballMan 8y ago

Knew that they wouldn't pick Toronto - Trump would have blown a gasket

Ensorceled 8y ago
We lost the bidding war. Seeing what concessions the other cities coughed up ... I'm maybe glad we didn't "win".
prolikewh0a 8y ago
Toronto dodged a bullet.
- m23khan 8y ago
  No, it didn't dodge a bullet, it lost the competition and hence the opportunity. Unless you are a subject matter expert and know exactly how this benefits Toronto (In which case then, I apologize). By virtue of moving into Toronto, all Canadian cities starting from Pickering/Oshawa all the way down to Hamilton/Waterloo would have seen a boost overtime to real-estate and hence towards economic activity - remember cities like Hamilton and Barrie are struggling to attract highly-educated / high-income residents and this would have given them better odds. All in all, loss of potential income for the Canadian economy.
  - prolikewh0a 8y ago
    I live in Seattle and have lived in Seattle. I know exactly the effects this has, and it's not beneficial except to the already wealthy. Great if you're rich, terrible if you're anything other than rich (hint: most people aren't rich).
dunpeal 8y ago
Kinda pointless to open a huge office for recruitment, where virtually all your top talent is trying to get to the US to benefit from far better employment terms and compensation.
bepotts 8y ago

isaacdl 8y ago

Wouldn't you call two new offices that are smaller than the headquarters "satellite offices"? It really does feel like Amazon successfully played a lot of municipalities against each other to try and extract the biggest concessions, knowing all along that it didn't make sense to try and hire 50000 people in a decade in any one location. I know that's how the game is played, but it's still feels a little disingenuous.

tomschlick 8y ago
> Wouldn't you call two new offices that are smaller than the headquarters "satellite offices"? They could be divisional HQs, as in Alexa HQ'd in NYC and AWS in DC.
- fooker 8y ago
  If they do that, that is eventually going to be used as ammunition for dismantling them.
  - pc86 8y ago
    Fine, I'll bite. How?
    - fooker 8y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System#Post-breakup_structure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System#Pos... Note the geographically oriented split.
- dunpeal 8y ago
  But they won't be. Can you imagine Amazon hiring 25k employees for just one project like Alexa? Also, the whole point of the new offices is to aid recruitment. Limiting particular offices to just one skillset goes totally against that. No, these offices will be smaller than the Seattle HQ, but at half the size, you can expect them to be quite diverse. They will not be a "single project" office.

kodablah 8y ago

Tax kickbacks of $48k/job in NY and $22k/job in VA wth average salary of $150k/yr. Also $325mil in NY and $23mil in VA for just occupying the space. All well below the projected billions in direct investment and tax amounts. Not sure whether worth it or not, but it's all around economic growth which I see as a good thing in general. We can argue about public funds and growing pains, but this problem is better than the opposite problem. If you are in the area and oppose along with the majority of your peers, say so at the polls. But I wouldn't be surprised to find that, outside of pro-tax/anti-big-corp circles, this is gleefully welcomed.

rb808 8y ago
> $48k/job in NY That is over 10 years, so is like $5k a year.
- noer 8y ago
  even then, assuming 15k jobs in New York is $75MM/yr, which is a lot of money.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > assuming 15k jobs in New York is $75MM/yr, which is a lot of money They'll probably pay it back in payroll taxes. The subsidy effect is an unfair tipping of the scales in favor of large companies. But mass has its benefits. You can't renovate LIC in the hope that businesses will move there. An anchor employer underwrites infrastructure with broader social benefits without requiring the city to co-ordinate lots of smaller employers. (The follow-on question being, how do we make such co-ordination easier.)
    - gwright 8y ago
      What happened to equality under the law? I hate these corporate ad-hoc tax deals. Create a rationale tax policy and apply it to everyone.
  - bilbo0s 8y ago

SippinLean 8y ago

> Long Island City is a mixed-use community where arts and industry intersect It's mostly empty warehouses, housing projects, and luxury condos. There's very little in terms of culture or even basic needs, like grocery stores. > Long Island City has some of the best transit access in New York City, with 8 subway lines, 13 bus lines, commuter rail, a bike-sharing service, and ferries serving the area Realistically it's the densely overcrowded 7 train, getting worse each year, with no relief in sight. Once the L shuts down in 2019 the G will be absolutely overrun. > and LaGuardia and JFK airports are in close proximity Getting to LGA involves taking a train to a bus, by car it's a breeze, JFK is an hour away by train.

puzzle 8y ago
If a lot of Amazon employees end up living in Manhattan, they'll be doing a reverse commute, which is probably a good thing for everyone. As to LGA, remember that it can't have direct flights to the West Coast (e.g.: Seattle...) for historical reasons. Maybe this will help rectify the situation.
- donretag 8y ago
  There are several factors why LGA has a 1500 miles flight radius restriction (with Denver being the only grandfathered exception), but the primary one is due to the length of the runways unable to cope with larger planes on cross-country routes.
jkaplowitz 8y ago
The 7 and the G are not as important if the Amazon people live in many parts of Queens instead of Manhattan or hipster parts of Brooklyn. As I'm sure many will, since it's currently one of the cheaper areas of the city (Astoria and LIC aside). LGA would be a quick cab or Uber ride for most people, well within Amazon employee affordability range. JFK would be comparatively quick by cab/Uber or yeah about 60 minutes by transit. That's par for the course for major metro area airports, certainly including Amazon's hometown of Seattle.
lic-defender 8y ago

acheron 8y ago

Interesting to see the Virginia state ("commonwealth") "incentives". At the state level, the original VA pitch was out near Dulles (the currently state-owned CIT land). Pitches for Arlington et al. were done by the county as far as I know. Presumably once Amazon zeroed in on the Arlington area the state was willing to go along. (Apple has supposedly been in talks with the state about the CIT land as well, just in a less public fashion than Amazon, so I assume something is still going to go in there soon, whether Apple or something else.)

throwaway2048 8y ago

This entire competition was an obvious sham to try to equivocate really desperate cities willing to give basically anything to have a major tech company headquarters, to the inevitable choice amazon was going to make of california or the coastal northeast, so they could extract maximum concessions. Its disgusting this worked as well as it did, $48k/job in tax concessions from NYC and $22k/job from VA, expect to see a lot more of this in the future. Hopefully governments wake up and realize its a race to the bottom that advantages megacorps to such a point that having them is barely worth it, while at the same time hurting local businesses. EDIT: the tax deductions are one time, not per year, i mixed that up.

differentView 8y ago
What do you mean by "hurting local businesses"? Wouldn't more highly paid workers in the area be good for local businesses?
- dannyr 8y ago
  Tell that to San Francisco where it gave Twitter tax break to be located in mid-Market. It didn't revitalize that neighborhood like the city was hoping for.
- TuringNYC 8y ago
  I was similarly confused by this...its not like its a Walmart superstore undurcutting the local mom-n-pop shop. That said, perhaps the fear is "over-cutting" -- that HQ2 slurps up top talent from local tech businesses and overbids salaries. I can totally see that happening, especially with the only-handful of truly high-tech businesses in the Northern Virginia community. This is a bad thing short term and a good thing long term.
  - slededit 8y ago
    They are quite literally the WalMart of the web. Although that sort of damage has already been done.
- 8y ago

rb808 8y ago

If only we had a tunnel from Seacaucus to Grand Central. Thanks Chris.

Cyclone_ 8y ago

Can't believe how many subsidies they got, to me it's a question of fairness, why should we subsidize them, but not others? I get that they are doing the community a service by creating high paying jobs, but there certainly have been negative sides to what they've done (gentrification, poor working conditions for many employees in their warehouses).

phoenixstrike 8y ago
How is gentrification negative?
- sandworm101 8y ago
  If you rent.
- bsanr 8y ago
  Drives up rent. Breaks up existing, stable (if often impoverished) communities. Increased, concentrated development can have a negative environmental impact.
  - matchbok 8y ago
    Nobody is entitled to live in a certain area for a certain price. Such things lead to distorted markets and tons of other issues.
    - bsanr 8y ago
      So do the developer incentives that have driven urban redevelopment for the last 2 decades. Hence, in part, the glut of luxury apartments and the ever-tightening affordable housing market.
      - matchbok 8y ago
        Nothing wrong with luxury apartments. Today's luxury is tomorrow's regular housing.

rb808 8y ago

> Hiring at both the new headquarters will begin in 2019. Do they have buildings leased? I presumed they were going to build. How can they start hiring already?

rootbear 8y ago
There is a lot of empty office space in Crystal City. They can move in almost immediately. They can then start figuring out if they want to build something new.
SeanBoocock 8y ago
Part of the rumors for the Arlington location included Amazon leasing older offices for the initial group of employees as they built out space: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/amazon-in-advanced-talks-about-putting-hq2-in-northern-virginia-those-close-to-process-say/2018/11/02/9be831d6-d7c0-11e8-aeb7-ddcad4a0a54e_story.html?utm_term=.aa3f196126b3 https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/amazon-in-advanced-talk...
gautamnarula 8y ago
I've heard speculation that Amazon might take over the Citi building in LIC, which Citi has been steadily vacating over the years.

lbarrow 8y ago

Newly elected Democrats in the NY state legislature might block the NYC Amazon subsidies and put the funds into student debt relief instead: https://capitalandmain.com/will-new-york-fund-amazon-subsidies-or-student-debt-relief-1113 https://capitalandmain.com/will-new-york-fund-amazon-subsidi...

FiveSquared 8y ago
Good. Studen loasns are BS and it will help stop more traffic
- devmunchies 8y ago
  not good. govt paying off student loans just makes them a sure bet and validates the behavior. Govt has the power to allow you to default, but why don't they?
  - blindwatchmaker 8y ago
    Excessive rents and debts are a drain on consumer spending and ultimately harm the economy. The root cause isn't greedy students wanting an education (weird way to think about it), but tuition costs ballooning out of control. It's also increasingly harder and harder to default on student debt, with states forcing extreme measures such as wage garnishing and taking away people's driving licenses: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/business/student-loans-licenses.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/business/student-loans-li... Fully expect to see debtor's prisons back in vogue this century.
    - Carlton87 8y ago
      The root cause are greedy loan providers that know payment back is a sure bet. My 50,000 foot view of the problem is that it is far to easy to obtain a huge sum of money to go to school for a career with no job prospects. My solution would be to factor in degree and ability to repay, making loans much harder to get. Also, I would revoke many degree paths from the ability to get approved federal loans.

schnevets 8y ago

As a New Yorker, I am super disappointed that they chose Long Island City. There were contenders where this stimulus could have been a paradigm shift. Instead, it's just a drop in the bucket for a city that is already growing recklessly. My vote was for Newark, personally. Plenty of office space; access to NJIT, Rutgers, and Princeton; and good public transit that connects directly into NYC. Bezos and co. could have done some real good, but instead they will just be contributing to New York's biggest gripes (unsustainable subways, housing shortages, and an aggregation of labor into a few metropolitan areas).

notyourwork 8y ago
Seattle residents send their condolences.
patrickmay 8y ago
I was really hoping for Raleigh and/or Dallas. Instead, Amazon picked two places where the cost of living is worse than Seattle.
- tjbarkley 8y ago
  Yeah, but some of the CEO's houses are in these two areas.
- amyjess 8y ago
  As a Dallasite, I've been hoping we won't get it because it would send our housing prices through the stratosphere and ruin traffic for a generation. From what I've seen, the reaction to this news on /r/Dallas is very positive. We don't want Amazon here. (Though I figured it was going to be NoVa from the start. I was just terrified I'd be wrong.)
- akhilcacharya 8y ago
  I'm from Raleigh but I"m not convinced Raleigh-area schools have the talent required and willing.
  - 8y ago

notJim 8y ago

Hard to escape the conclusion that this whole thing was just a way to grab tax cuts for places where Amazon already has a presence.

imgabe 8y ago

Both cities should pull their subsidy packages. Amazon negotiated in bad faith, under false pretenses. The conditions under which any subsidies were offered no longer apply.

AnimalMuppet 8y ago
Could you state what the false pretenses were, and how those conditions no longer apply? All you have here is a dogmatic assertion with no supporting information. Often that is done by people who have strong beliefs but no basis for them, so if you have a basis, stating it can prevent you from getting lumped in with the "dogmatic unreality" people.
- imgabe 8y ago
  Did you read any article about this at all over the past year? The original proposal was for a single HQ2 in one city, not half of one in two cities. Are you just an Amazon shill who jumps in to try and suppress any criticism of them?
  - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
    > Are you just an Amazon shill who jumps in to try and suppress any criticism of them? No, I'm not. Are you the kind of commenter who accuses everyone who disagrees with you of being a shill, so that you can control the conversation? (There's at least as much evidence of that than there is of me being a shill...)
    - imgabe 8y ago
      There have been stories about this for months. It's reasonable to assume that most people reading and commenting on them are familiar with the history of this long running story and the well publicized last minute change in the terms of the agreement by Amazon in the last week. If you are honestly unaware of this and need it explained to you, then in the future take some time to familiarize yourself with the context of what's going on or ask some questions before you jump in and start insulting people.

jesseryoung 8y ago

Unless I'm misreading this, it looks like Nashville got the best deal > Amazon will receive performance-based direct incentives of up to $102 million based on the company creating 5,000 jobs with an average wage of over $150,000 in Nashville. This is a pretty big deal for Nashville, and costing them only $12,000 per job is a pretty big win.

Xcelerate 8y ago
The University of Tennessee ranks well in supply chain & logistics, so it makes sense. I believe Lyft opened a similar operations office in Nashville. Unfortunately, Nashville could really use strong tech jobs as well, which the state is sorely lacking. I wish Amazon had chosen Nashville as one of the main HQs.
- bdcravens 8y ago
  > The University of Tennessee ranks well in supply chain & logistics Fedex is based in Memphis, so this makes sense
bdcravens 8y ago
Proximity to Fedex's headquarters and hub probably played a large role.
vadym909 8y ago
Nashville makes sense for anyone doing distribution. Great airport with tons of planes, pilots, distribution center workers already there for the largest couriers. Also because you can reach 60% of Americans by road in 1-2 days and efficient hub and spoke distribution for air freight.
- siruncledrew 8y ago
  Fedex uses Memphis as their distribution hub, so Amazon is taking a similar path it seems.
ap24 8y ago

drfuchs 8y ago

Since each city is only receiving half the benefit they thought they were bidding on, presumably they’ll each get to cut their bids in half — the subsidies, tax abatements, infrastructure spending promises, etc.? But I haven’t seen any notice of this in the news coverage. [rerun]

avryhof 8y ago

That's right, Andy. Change your name now. Amazon Cuomo

Simulacra 8y ago

Ahhhh crap. Here goes housing prices... We were really hoping to buy something next year :(

mrburkins 8y ago

I still don't understand why NYC gave up so much by way of incentives and subsidies. With things the way they are, seemingly Amazon needed NYC, way more than NYC needed amazon.

gayandproud 8y ago

Hope all you want, but a good half+ of the HQ2 hires will be minorities. Not a lot of minorities want to live in a deep south or Texas region due to racism, stand-your-ground, etc. Same thing for gays. If you want to hope for diverse knowledge businesses opening in Dallas, perhaps start with pushing for equality. I can think of a thousand examples, but here is the latest: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/07/us/dallas-police-shooting-botham-shem-jean.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/07/us/dallas-police-shooting... Dallas Police Officer Kills Her Neighbor in His Apartment, Saying She Mistook It for Her Own Cop comes home to wrong apartment and kills black resident in that apartment. The really shocking thing -- widespread support amongst whites in support of the officer!

justtopost 8y ago
Preach all you want, but the south is no more homophobic than any other region. Your own hefty bias only muddies the waters.
- magic_beans 8y ago
  Ouch. This is not true at all.
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  > the south is no more homophobic than any other region. You can't possibly believe this is actually true. You think the South isn't any more homophobic than, say, the west coast? Really? Here's some data, the first % is "Homosexuality should be accepted", the second is "Homosexuality should be discouraged": http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/views-about-homosexuality/by/state/ http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/vi... First, a few states from the deep South: Alabama - 41% :: 52% Arkansas - 45% :: 47% Georgia - 55% :: 38% Mississippi - 40% :: 54% South Carolina - 51% :: 42% Now the west coast: California - 69% :: 24% Oregon - 66% :: 25% Washington - 69% :: 27% I lived in Alabama for a couple years. People are definitely more socially conservative there, and that does lend itself to homophobia. Not everyone who's a social conservative, of course, but it's definitely much more common than with social liberals.
- 8y ago

alehul 8y ago

Why do we give Amazon subsidies but not small businesses, who altogether provide over 50% of the jobs in America? The reason, as I understand it, is because Amazon as a single corporate entity provides far more jobs and holds more power. Following that: Wouldn't the small businesses, due to our anti-trust regulations, actually be considered a cartel if they tried to negotiate as a group and gain the same tax advantages that Amazon has? So, with that in mind, don't we have some very arbitrary laws? If I could buy up a few small businesses and negotiate with them as pawns, but without a common owner, it's anti-trust behavior? Maybe I'm misunderstanding this; IANAL, but would love to hear someone's opinion. Though game theory would likely prevent their continued cooperation, it seems quite unfair for small businesses that are unable, even in theory, to collectively negotiate on the same scale as Amazon.

arrosenberg 8y ago
Also not a lawyer, but cartel behavior usually refers to price-fixing and other anti-competitive behavior. Small businesses banding together the way you described would just be lobbying and already happens frequently. Amazon should be investigated for anti-competitive practices, and their ability to negotiate this kind of a circus is certainly an indication of that. The problem has been two-fold - 1. The Sherman act is over 100 years old and was written to target 19th century trusts like Standard Oil and the railroads. These need to be updated to reflect new types of models of trusts and conglomeration (and accumulation of power) that have developed. 2. Enforcement - the SEC and FTC are largely toothless and everyone knows it. If you are a company that can afford a team of lawyers, its unlikely you will be penalized in a way that actually hurts.
- asr 8y ago
  The SEC does not enforce the antitrust laws. Do you mean the DOJ? If you are going to take unsubstantiated potshots at government agencies you would sound more credible if you at least picked the right agencies. * * * On the substantive question here, I agree that small businesses already band together to lobby the government for special treatment. It's not an antitrust violation to ask the government for things, even if you couldn't get together and do those things directly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noerr%E2%80%93Pennington_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noerr%E2%80%93Pennington_doctr....

adamqureshi 8y ago

I grew up in QUEENS. Well LIC is a melting pot. The amazon workers can live in sunnyside queens or greenpoint brooklyn. I think with AMAZON coming to LIC that whole area is gonna light up. Also lets not forget Roosevelt Island is right there. You'll see new development in Roosvelt island. Buildings have been going up in LIC for the last 10 years. You have Jackson Hights. Sunnyside, greenpoint, also the boogie down bronx has places to live,. so the transit system is gonna be PACKED. the train is always late in NYC / Queens. LIRR will also see increased traffic from Jamaica to hunters point or woodside. You can get LIRR from Forrest hills or key Gardens. This will allow for new eating places to open and other small business will pop up to meet the needs of the 25k people they plan to hire. I will be looking for business opportunities my self! :-)

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Rainymood 8y ago

Who bended over the furthest for their new corporate overlords?

ryanwaggoner 8y ago

Wow, the gatekeepers in /r/nashville are probably apoplectic.

LiterallyDoge 8y ago

Is there really any good reason to hate Amazon for this? It sounds like they gave an offer, and the offer was good, so people wanted it. I like freedom. This sounds like freedom. Is it not?

ourmandave 8y ago

As usual, the Onion nails it... New York City Announces Subway Just For Amazon Employees Now https://www.theonion.com/new-york-city-announces-subway-just-for-amazon-employee-1830418104 https://www.theonion.com/new-york-city-announces-subway-just...

taohansen 8y ago

Why didn’t anyone ask the residents if they wanted a megacorporation to move into their neighborhoods? Amazon insisted on absolute secrecy moving forward and elected officials went right along with it. Queens residents are outraged by this news. No one asked them. How is this democracy at work?

ctvo 8y ago

The easiest way to think about these HQs for me: - Seattle - retail, logistics - Crystal City - AWS - New York City - Amazon services for advertising, publishing, media I would bet Seattle sees those roles slowly pull towards their respective HQs. It's already happening with advertising and NYC as far as I can tell from their job listings. And if in the future, for some reason, Amazon is required to break up, this would make it a little less messy.

damnson 8y ago

I haven't read anyone citing Google also setting up shop in NYC. This might be way off but could Amazon and Google be competing for political influence in NYC?