5 ms·

Why do ISPs peer with China Telekom? BGP is built on trust, if a peer isn’t trustworthy why not drop them?

rahimnathwani 8y ago
China Telecom is the 2nd largest domestic broadband provider, and the 3rd largest mobile operator, in China. Lots of people live in China.
- chongli 8y ago
  China has also made it their goal to bifurcate the internet in order to prop up their authoritarian state. I don't see why the rest of the world should play along with that. It's frustrating in the extreme to see big Western companies repeatedly bow to the Communist party's wishes only to get all of their IP stolen by a domestic clone with the backing of the government.
  - rahimnathwani 8y ago
    Which 'big Western companies' got 'all of their IP stolen'?
    - mtgx 8y ago
      Which haven't? Even Google was hacked by the Chinese military.
    - MadraRua2000 8y ago
      https://www.fireeye.com/content/dam/fireeye-www/services/pdfs/mandiant-apt1-report.pdf https://www.fireeye.com/content/dam/fireeye-www/services/pdf... To answer your question, most large companies have been subject to cyber espionage by the chinese military for several years. This accounts for the speed at which China built its manufacturing base in strategically important industries and its ability to rapidly copy products and the required tooling for their manufacture. The Mandiant report I linked to above focused on tracking the activities of a single but prolific APT group responsible for hacks in 150 major companies worldwide for 7 years since 2006, and that they believe is actually a team of cyber espionage professionals from within the Chinese military. Also just for fun: Anyone here drive a Range Rover Evoke? Heres China's version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landwind_X7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landwind_X7
      - rahimnathwani 8y ago
        What you wrote after "To answer your question" doesn't answer my question.
    - IOT_Apprentice 8y ago
      Westinghouse Nuclear for one.
  - yourbandsucks 8y ago
    Then the solution is more connectivity rather than less, no?
  - yorwba 8y ago
    > China has also made it their goal to bifurcate the internet in order to prop up their authoritarian state. I don't see why the rest of the world should play along with that. China doesn't need anyone to play along to prevent their population from accessing the global internet. Right now, at least the rest of the world can access Chinese websites. A blanket ban on peering with Chinese ISPs would really bifurcate the internet. I'd count that as "playing along".
Hikikomori 8y ago
It wasn't even CT that was the cause this time, they just propagated what they got from another ISP. There could certainly have filters in place but that only really works for stub networks.
Aic1kuir 8y ago
These routes can spill over many different paths. There is no central authority that would be able to drop them from the whole internet. Even if one Tier 1 ISP dropped them then their routes would just flow through another one. And good luck getting all of them to agree on that unless there's some massive, persistent abuse.
- apathy 8y ago
  China and Nigeria are the types of state actors that might provide that sort of persistent abuse. Two billion people living in an autocracy ... if Google still believed in Don’t Be Evil, this would not be acceptable.
  - manigandham 8y ago
    That’s just a corporate motto, not an actual belief. It was, is, and always be a meaningless PR phrase as empty as any other. It just goes to show the power of branding and how much people attach to it.
    - eloff 8y ago
      I think a lot of people at Google do take that seriously. Don't be so cynical.
      - berbec 8y ago
        On one hand, many people at Google do take it seriously. On the other hand, there are the people making decisions.
      - manigandham 8y ago
        Most people aren't evil, so that's not really special. Taking the statement seriously is the power of branding at work designed to drive employees.
    - apathy 8y ago
      It wasn’t always that way. There were people (especially in operations) that used it as a guide for certain decisions. I was disappointed when the slogan was retired.
ElBarto 8y ago
BBC reports that the error was with the Nigerian ISP, not China or China Telecom: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46194279 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46194279
solotronics 8y ago
BGP is a system build based on two things primarily in this order - shortest prefix to reach an IP ( 99.99.99.0/24 takes precedence over 99.99.0.0/16 ) - shortest number of "hops" measured by how many AS paths it takes to get somewhere ( if you have multiple ways to get to 99.99.99.0/24, the way with the last number of autonomous systems "AS" in it wins ) So the result is that you have to somewhat trust who you are peering with, and who they are peering with, etc. to the other end of the traffic. A bad actor can make lots of chaos.

China Telecom is the 2nd largest domestic broadband provider, and the 3rd largest mobile operator, in China. Lots of people live in China.

chongli 8y ago
China has also made it their goal to bifurcate the internet in order to prop up their authoritarian state. I don't see why the rest of the world should play along with that. It's frustrating in the extreme to see big Western companies repeatedly bow to the Communist party's wishes only to get all of their IP stolen by a domestic clone with the backing of the government.
- rahimnathwani 8y ago
  Which 'big Western companies' got 'all of their IP stolen'?
  - mtgx 8y ago
    Which haven't? Even Google was hacked by the Chinese military.
  - MadraRua2000 8y ago
    https://www.fireeye.com/content/dam/fireeye-www/services/pdfs/mandiant-apt1-report.pdf https://www.fireeye.com/content/dam/fireeye-www/services/pdf... To answer your question, most large companies have been subject to cyber espionage by the chinese military for several years. This accounts for the speed at which China built its manufacturing base in strategically important industries and its ability to rapidly copy products and the required tooling for their manufacture. The Mandiant report I linked to above focused on tracking the activities of a single but prolific APT group responsible for hacks in 150 major companies worldwide for 7 years since 2006, and that they believe is actually a team of cyber espionage professionals from within the Chinese military. Also just for fun: Anyone here drive a Range Rover Evoke? Heres China's version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landwind_X7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landwind_X7
    - rahimnathwani 8y ago
      What you wrote after "To answer your question" doesn't answer my question.
  - IOT_Apprentice 8y ago
    Westinghouse Nuclear for one.
- yourbandsucks 8y ago
  Then the solution is more connectivity rather than less, no?
- yorwba 8y ago
  > China has also made it their goal to bifurcate the internet in order to prop up their authoritarian state. I don't see why the rest of the world should play along with that. China doesn't need anyone to play along to prevent their population from accessing the global internet. Right now, at least the rest of the world can access Chinese websites. A blanket ban on peering with Chinese ISPs would really bifurcate the internet. I'd count that as "playing along".

Hikikomori 8y ago

It wasn't even CT that was the cause this time, they just propagated what they got from another ISP. There could certainly have filters in place but that only really works for stub networks.

Aic1kuir 8y ago

These routes can spill over many different paths. There is no central authority that would be able to drop them from the whole internet. Even if one Tier 1 ISP dropped them then their routes would just flow through another one. And good luck getting all of them to agree on that unless there's some massive, persistent abuse.

apathy 8y ago
China and Nigeria are the types of state actors that might provide that sort of persistent abuse. Two billion people living in an autocracy ... if Google still believed in Don’t Be Evil, this would not be acceptable.
- manigandham 8y ago
  That’s just a corporate motto, not an actual belief. It was, is, and always be a meaningless PR phrase as empty as any other. It just goes to show the power of branding and how much people attach to it.
  - eloff 8y ago
    I think a lot of people at Google do take that seriously. Don't be so cynical.
    - berbec 8y ago
      On one hand, many people at Google do take it seriously. On the other hand, there are the people making decisions.
    - manigandham 8y ago
      Most people aren't evil, so that's not really special. Taking the statement seriously is the power of branding at work designed to drive employees.
  - apathy 8y ago
    It wasn’t always that way. There were people (especially in operations) that used it as a guide for certain decisions. I was disappointed when the slogan was retired.

ElBarto 8y ago

BBC reports that the error was with the Nigerian ISP, not China or China Telecom: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46194279 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46194279

solotronics 8y ago

BGP is a system build based on two things primarily in this order - shortest prefix to reach an IP ( 99.99.99.0/24 takes precedence over 99.99.0.0/16 ) - shortest number of "hops" measured by how many AS paths it takes to get somewhere ( if you have multiple ways to get to 99.99.99.0/24, the way with the last number of autonomous systems "AS" in it wins ) So the result is that you have to somewhat trust who you are peering with, and who they are peering with, etc. to the other end of the traffic. A bad actor can make lots of chaos.