4 ms·

Having just dealt with the London Congestion Charge rapists^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hsystem, I can definitely relate. In terms of abject inefficiency combined with applica

by swombat 16y ago

Having just dealt with the London Congestion Charge rapists^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hsystem, I can definitely relate. In terms of abject inefficiency combined with application of plain and simple force, consider the London Congestion Charge system. They built a system whereby you are charged a fixed fee (supposed to be £8) if you drive into the congestion charge zone at all during the hours of 7am and 6pm. It's £8 if you pay it on the same day. It's £10 if you pay it on the next day. After that period, you are now officially a war criminal of the road, and penalised with a whopping £120 fine (reduce to £60 if you pay promptly). Later, it turns into £180, and then more... No problem, you say, I'll just make sure I pay all my charges on the day. Ah, ok, but how do you know you've got to pay a congestion charge today? Turns out there's no way of checking. The Congestion Charge systems won't tell you whether you should pay or not. The only time when they'll tell you you need to pay is when they send you a penalty notice. I asked one of their agents about this, he suggested it was best to pay if you were in any doubt, "because the penalty is so much more expensive". This is somewhat akin to going to the supermarket, filling up your trolley, going to the checkout, and being asked to guess how much you should pay. "If you guess too little, we'll penalise you by charging you 1200% of the price of what you bought, so make sure you don't guess too low." I find such a system morally reprehensible. It is a vile abuse of power and the people who voted in, designed and built such a system are soulless scumbags. But because it is a government system, rather than a business, there is nothing I can do to take my business elsewhere (other than move to another country of course, but that will have its own sets of tradeoffs). The greek have a saying that "if you're not stealing from the government, you're stealing from your family". Like John Carmack, I don't go that far. But I don't support any expansion of government powers or responsibilities whatsoever. The less the government does, the better (within reason of course). Yet, despite this, I still think it's a good idea for the government to intervene when it comes to fundamental things like road maintenance, the fire service, healthcare, or a criminal justice system. The government should do no more than handle the fundamentals, but a government which fails to handle the fundamentals is even more of a disaster than one which handles too much.

dionidium 16y ago
penalised with a whopping £120 fine (reduce to £60 if you pay promptly) A more straightforward way to say this is that there's a £60 fine, which increases to £120 if you don't pay promptly.
- swombat 16y ago
  Their wording, not mine: "The Penalty Charge of £120.00 must be paid no later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this Notice. If the Penalty Charge is paid no later than the last day of the period of 21 days beginning with the date of service of this Notice it will be reduced by 50% to £60.00." Based on the general meanness of the service, I think it's reasonable to presume that they phrased it this way so some people would not read to the end and overpay £120 instead of £60. Given such bad faith, I don't see why I should make the effort to rephrase their own statements to look more favourable towards them.
steveklabnik 16y ago
> rapists^H^H^H^H^H^H^H You can ^W instead of ^H to delete a whole word instead of just a character. ;) (Though I have always had a soft spot for the people that take the time to get the number of ^Hs correct.)
- pingswept 16y ago
  I, for one, appreciate your effort to help improve the efficiency of joke delivery. Makes me want to post to rec.humor.funny from vim, just for the thrill of it.
- swombat 16y ago
  (Though I have always had a soft spot for the people that take the time to get the number of ^Hs correct.) I'm a pedant. Is it that obvious? :-)
rwmj 16y ago
You used an expensive resource, and the citizens of London freely voted (twice) that this should cost you £8 to use. Pay it, or don't drive in London. The Congestion Charge systems won't tell you whether you should pay or not Of course not, because the cameras don't record every number plate reliably.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- alextgordon 16y ago
  Of course not, because the cameras don't record every number plate reliably. So politely ask the person to pay the original fee, and fine them if they don't pay promptly. The problem is that the system assumes bad faith.
- swombat 16y ago
  I'm happy to pay for the congestion charge. What I'm unhappy with is the grossly unfair implementation of it. As I said in my original post, any system that asks you to speculatively pay for something which you don't know whether you've actually used, in order to avoid a hefty government-enforced fine, is a morally reprehensible. I cannot condone any such system existing. It is, quite simply, extortion, and I cannot support its existence. They might as well have said "pay us, or we might come and break your legs".
  - rwmj 16y ago
    There are enormous signs, on both the surface of the road, and next to the road, saying you are going into the congestion charge zone. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/London_congestion_charge https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/London_conges... If you're so disorganized that you are oblivious to these signs and don't know the day of the week, really you shouldn't be driving a car at all.
    - swombat 16y ago
      I often drive around 7am. How do I know that they're using the same clock as me?
anigbrowl 16y ago
I don't understand why you can't tell whether or not you need to pay. There are signs to identify where the congestion charge zone is, so if you drive past one between 7a-6p then you owe for that day. You can register to pay online and have it auto-deducted. I think it's very expensive and maybe not good value, but back when I lived in London I don't recall any difficulty in knowing whether or not I had driven into the downtown area where I was required to pay the traffic fee. Have they removed all the signs or something since then?
- swombat 16y ago
  I'm often driving in and out of London around 7am (I drive my girlfriend to the station so she can go to breakfast networking meetings around town). There are also some confusing bits - a friend told me he got charged for doing a U-turn that took him partly into a congestion zone. He was trying to avoid being in the congestion zone, and wasn't sure whether he did manage to avoid it, but had no way to check (and so ended up penalised). The auto-deducting thing is due to come in in January - until then you have to manually go and pay the charge if you think you should, without any way of knowing whether you should. Considering the bad faith of the system as it is, although I probably will sign up for the auto-deducting system, I am concerned about giving direct access to my bank account to such people.
  - anigbrowl 16y ago
    It's bad that they don't already have that (auto-debit) in place, but they use the same sort of thing on toll bridges and so in California. Look on the bright side; UK governments (central and local) are on a big money-saving kick right now, so there's a lot of opportunity to disrupt the status quo with a more efficient solution, and as you can see they're rather behind the times.

by swombat 16y ago

dionidium 16y ago

penalised with a whopping £120 fine (reduce to £60 if you pay promptly) A more straightforward way to say this is that there's a £60 fine, which increases to £120 if you don't pay promptly.

swombat 16y ago
Their wording, not mine: "The Penalty Charge of £120.00 must be paid no later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this Notice. If the Penalty Charge is paid no later than the last day of the period of 21 days beginning with the date of service of this Notice it will be reduced by 50% to £60.00." Based on the general meanness of the service, I think it's reasonable to presume that they phrased it this way so some people would not read to the end and overpay £120 instead of £60. Given such bad faith, I don't see why I should make the effort to rephrase their own statements to look more favourable towards them.

steveklabnik 16y ago

> rapists^H^H^H^H^H^H^H You can ^W instead of ^H to delete a whole word instead of just a character. ;) (Though I have always had a soft spot for the people that take the time to get the number of ^Hs correct.)

pingswept 16y ago
I, for one, appreciate your effort to help improve the efficiency of joke delivery. Makes me want to post to rec.humor.funny from vim, just for the thrill of it.
swombat 16y ago
(Though I have always had a soft spot for the people that take the time to get the number of ^Hs correct.) I'm a pedant. Is it that obvious? :-)

rwmj 16y ago

You used an expensive resource, and the citizens of London freely voted (twice) that this should cost you £8 to use. Pay it, or don't drive in London. The Congestion Charge systems won't tell you whether you should pay or not Of course not, because the cameras don't record every number plate reliably.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
alextgordon 16y ago
Of course not, because the cameras don't record every number plate reliably. So politely ask the person to pay the original fee, and fine them if they don't pay promptly. The problem is that the system assumes bad faith.
swombat 16y ago
I'm happy to pay for the congestion charge. What I'm unhappy with is the grossly unfair implementation of it. As I said in my original post, any system that asks you to speculatively pay for something which you don't know whether you've actually used, in order to avoid a hefty government-enforced fine, is a morally reprehensible. I cannot condone any such system existing. It is, quite simply, extortion, and I cannot support its existence. They might as well have said "pay us, or we might come and break your legs".
- rwmj 16y ago
  There are enormous signs, on both the surface of the road, and next to the road, saying you are going into the congestion charge zone. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/London_congestion_charge https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/London_conges... If you're so disorganized that you are oblivious to these signs and don't know the day of the week, really you shouldn't be driving a car at all.
  - swombat 16y ago
    I often drive around 7am. How do I know that they're using the same clock as me?

anigbrowl 16y ago

I don't understand why you can't tell whether or not you need to pay. There are signs to identify where the congestion charge zone is, so if you drive past one between 7a-6p then you owe for that day. You can register to pay online and have it auto-deducted. I think it's very expensive and maybe not good value, but back when I lived in London I don't recall any difficulty in knowing whether or not I had driven into the downtown area where I was required to pay the traffic fee. Have they removed all the signs or something since then?

swombat 16y ago
I'm often driving in and out of London around 7am (I drive my girlfriend to the station so she can go to breakfast networking meetings around town). There are also some confusing bits - a friend told me he got charged for doing a U-turn that took him partly into a congestion zone. He was trying to avoid being in the congestion zone, and wasn't sure whether he did manage to avoid it, but had no way to check (and so ended up penalised). The auto-deducting thing is due to come in in January - until then you have to manually go and pay the charge if you think you should, without any way of knowing whether you should. Considering the bad faith of the system as it is, although I probably will sign up for the auto-deducting system, I am concerned about giving direct access to my bank account to such people.
- anigbrowl 16y ago
  It's bad that they don't already have that (auto-debit) in place, but they use the same sort of thing on toll bridges and so in California. Look on the bright side; UK governments (central and local) are on a big money-saving kick right now, so there's a lot of opportunity to disrupt the status quo with a more efficient solution, and as you can see they're rather behind the times.