10 ms·

A lot of people keep complaining about Apple raising their prices without considering that a) Apple knows people will pay it and b) they're making really solid

A lot of people keep complaining about Apple raising their prices without considering that a) Apple knows people will pay it and b) they're making really solid machines that last longer. The MacBook Pro that I'm typing this on is closer to a decade old than is it new and is showing no signs of stopping. A friend of mine has had three name-brand PC laptops in that time. I acknowledge the current prices are a hard pill to swallow, but the tool I use to generate my income isn't something I want to skimp on.

amvalo 8y ago
> b) they're making really solid machines that last longer. The MacBook Pro that I'm typing this on is closer to a decade old Erm... We can certainly conclude that a decade ago, they made long-lasting machines. The newer MBP are apparently defeated by a grain of sand.
- baxtr 8y ago
  Which is not true. One of my worst apple products was a white MB I bought 10 yrs ago that just disintegrated, the white plastic broke gradually of.
protomyth 8y ago
b) they're making really solid machines that last longer. The concern is their products are no longer lasting longer, they deny there are problems for long periods of time, and make it very hard to fix independently. The higher prices are worth it for quality, but they are cutting corners in places they shouldn’t for quality products.
- stevenjohns 8y ago
  In all honesty iOS 12 rolling out to the iPhone 5s - a five year old device - showed their commitment to that. It will be supported at least until iOS 13 which is next year, giving the device six years of software updates. And the iOS 12 update was actually quite good and breathed life into older phones. I don't think there was ever much concern about MacBooks not lasting long - they definitely hold up. The concerns lay with iPads and iPhones, and they're most certainly holding up now. This shift is actually the reason why I moved back to Apple after leaving the ecosystem back in 2011 or so.
  - protomyth 8y ago
    The iPhone 6 is trouble plagued, and the MacBook had a keyboard the dies if it gets dusty. The iPhones after the 6 all had problems. Heck, the whole slow down the machine to preserve old batteries shows what a pain it is to replace the battery and an acknowledgement that batteries degrade. Never mind the repair cost for the various ports that went out on MacBooks.
    - stevenjohns 8y ago
      > The iPhone 6 is trouble plagued, and the MacBook had a keyboard the dies if it gets dusty Anecdotally, I bought my mom an iPhone 6 and she hasn't complained of any issues, and my 2016 15" MacBook Pro literally survived being trashed (in the form of dropping it, trying to crack it open, probably kicking it around, maybe even using it as a chopping board) by the Mossad. > The iPhones after the 6 all had problems I'm pretty happy with my iPhone X. I used an iPhone 8 Plus briefly before this and didn't have much trouble. Which issues do you mean? > Heck, the whole slow down the machine to preserve old batteries shows what a pain it is to replace the battery and an acknowledgement that batteries degrade That definitely was poor form on their part, but they've dropped the price of battery replacements (I think until the end of this year?) and now have a dedicated screen for battery health.
      - saagarjha 8y ago
        > my 2016 15" MacBook Pro literally survived being trashed (in the form of dropping it, trying to crack it open, probably kicking it around, maybe even using it as a chopping board) by the Mossad Wait, what?
        stevenjohns 8y ago
        Being born in a "red flag" country and trying to travel to Israel on an El Al flight is an interesting affair.
    - achompas 8y ago
      I just put iOS 12 on a family member’s iPhone 6, a four year old model. It runs beautifully. Apple replaced the battery on it for $29, even though the phone did not need it (capacity was above 90% after 2 years of use - it was purchased before phase-out). More people should replace batteries - their phones would last longer at a cheaper annual cost. We already know modern iPhones have more than enough compute in them. “Planned obsolescence” is not a thing with iPhones.
- millstone 8y ago
  Apple has problems but "cutting corners" is not one of them. The butterfly keyboard is bad, and the problem is apparently that it is too delicate. There's no evidence this bad keyboard was created as a cost-saving measure. The mechanism is complex, and clearly expensive. If anything it was a mistake born of fetishizing thinness.
  - dawnerd 8y ago
    And they’re fixing it for free even out of warranty. Good luck getting a pc laptop manufacturer to repair a 2016 model for four years for free.
    - simion314 8y ago
      After a class action lawsuit happened, before they denied the issue.
      - xhruso00 8y ago
        Sad practice of Apple PR. Deny issues the longest time possible.
        simion314 8y ago
        More sad is the customer attitude that fall for it and now praise Apple for replace the keyboard or the phone batteries but don't mention that it just needed some class action lawsuit.
    - Schlaefer 8y ago
      They start those programs years into the product cycle (afaik the 2018 model isn't covered at the moment). They decide every time if it is a warranty case. They decide if other parts need replacement first and you have to pay for those. - Also you actually paid for that, because Apple doesn't loses money on Macs. It's priced in. For other manufactures you just buy the replacement part for 40 bucks on amazon, it comes to your house and you replace it yourself within ten minutes. I prefer that cheap, zero downtime solution even if I have to pay for it myself. It's nice that this warranty program exists, but it's a band aid, not a fix.
- arbol 8y ago
  I've just moved away from Mac book Pro for this very reason. The new keyboard is horrendous.
KKKKkkkk1 8y ago
I'm typing this on a six-year old Lenovo that runs Ubuntu like a champ. Part of the reason why people run 10-year-old Apple hardware without upgrading is because it's so damn expensive.
- xhruso00 8y ago
  The old Macbooks were easily upgradable with ram and swapping hard disk for ssd. With the T2 introduction they are just making overpriced machines with 3 years warranty (extra for applecare)
- wwweston 8y ago
  How are sleep, wake, battery management, and sound? If they're essentially seamless, which Lenovo laptop are you using? (I'm considering a replacement for a 2012 MBP).
  - KozmoNau7 8y ago
    My main laptop is a 2011 X220i, which has been upgraded to 8GB RAM, SSD, 5GHz wifi, USB 3.0 (ExpressCard) and a new 9-cell battery. I'm running KDE Neon on it right now, and everything worked perfectly from a default install. Before that I was using Linux Mint, and that also worked fine. Sleep+wake and just work, and the sound switches correctly if I plug in a displayport cable or a stereo jack. I get 6-7 hours of battery life, which is expected with an i3 that needs to work a little harder these days. Both Neon and Mind are based on Ubuntu LTS. I had a newer T440 briefly, and that had no issues either.
    - wwweston 8y ago
      Sounds like a good place to start with the Lenovo possibilities -- thanks!
Matthias247 8y ago
However it's highly doubtable if the current versions (with butterfly keyboards) will last for the same amount of time. They are also less future-proof than older revisions, due to non-exchangable RAM and storage. I feel for the Macbook side my main concern wouldn't be the increasing prices, but the combination with the fact that those things haven't really gotten better for some years. The entry level models with 128GB SSD are not better than was sold 3 years ago. I bought a 2015 Macbook Pro with 256GB, and the newest variant would be within the same speed rate, has the same amount of storage, and is more expensive. I would also prefer the screen as well as the keyboard of the 2015. The only thing that might be nice on the 2015 would be an (additional) USB-C/TB3 port.
- raincom 8y ago
  Geekbench shows 2018 Macbook Pro is almost 200% better than 2015 MBP (20000 multicore vs 10000 multicore, and 4 cores vs 6 cores).
  - Matthias247 8y ago
    I think I compared the baseline models (lowest price 13" dual-core ones), and those had been very very close. The top models might be a different story, but the price gap there might be even bigger.
- cgora 8y ago
  > "They are also less future-proof than older revisions, due to non-exchangable RAM and storage." In my mind the most problematic thing that Apple does is make the batteries difficult to replace. Last I checked replacing a MacBook Pro battery through official channels also includes replacing the topcase, making it a nearly $400 repair.
  - wild_preference 8y ago
    Interestingly, if you can demonstrate that your keyboard has gone to shit and they thus have to do a top-panel replacement, they have to replace the battery, too. At least that's what they did with my new Macbook Pro when a few of the keys came off with my fingers as I typed because I thought I could power through the crunches of debris that got under them. Possibly the one (cheeky) advantage of a hard to replace battery: free battery replacement when something else fails. :)
sdflhasjd 8y ago
>The MacBook Pro that I'm typing this on is closer to a decade old. I'm not typing on mine because it doesn't work.
mkagenius 8y ago
> MacBook Pro that I'm typing this on is closer to a decade old than is it new and is showing no signs of stopping. iPhone 5S on the other hand became unusable after 3 years. Battery lasts only 7 hours if you keep it still without a SIM card. The apps lag while opening. 16GB memory is way too less and I can't even upgrade it -- not even in an apple authorized center.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- reducesuffering 8y ago
  On the other hand, the iPhone 5S is 5 years old, is still supported by the latest iOS 12, and I was using it until just recently. Many apps did lag a few seconds, but the battery lasted until the end of the day with moderate use. Quite impressive compared to the equivalent priced Androids that seem to always be 1.5 - 3 years life.

amvalo 8y ago

> b) they're making really solid machines that last longer. The MacBook Pro that I'm typing this on is closer to a decade old Erm... We can certainly conclude that a decade ago, they made long-lasting machines. The newer MBP are apparently defeated by a grain of sand.

baxtr 8y ago
Which is not true. One of my worst apple products was a white MB I bought 10 yrs ago that just disintegrated, the white plastic broke gradually of.

protomyth 8y ago

b) they're making really solid machines that last longer. The concern is their products are no longer lasting longer, they deny there are problems for long periods of time, and make it very hard to fix independently. The higher prices are worth it for quality, but they are cutting corners in places they shouldn’t for quality products.

stevenjohns 8y ago
In all honesty iOS 12 rolling out to the iPhone 5s - a five year old device - showed their commitment to that. It will be supported at least until iOS 13 which is next year, giving the device six years of software updates. And the iOS 12 update was actually quite good and breathed life into older phones. I don't think there was ever much concern about MacBooks not lasting long - they definitely hold up. The concerns lay with iPads and iPhones, and they're most certainly holding up now. This shift is actually the reason why I moved back to Apple after leaving the ecosystem back in 2011 or so.
- protomyth 8y ago
  The iPhone 6 is trouble plagued, and the MacBook had a keyboard the dies if it gets dusty. The iPhones after the 6 all had problems. Heck, the whole slow down the machine to preserve old batteries shows what a pain it is to replace the battery and an acknowledgement that batteries degrade. Never mind the repair cost for the various ports that went out on MacBooks.
  - stevenjohns 8y ago
    > The iPhone 6 is trouble plagued, and the MacBook had a keyboard the dies if it gets dusty Anecdotally, I bought my mom an iPhone 6 and she hasn't complained of any issues, and my 2016 15" MacBook Pro literally survived being trashed (in the form of dropping it, trying to crack it open, probably kicking it around, maybe even using it as a chopping board) by the Mossad. > The iPhones after the 6 all had problems I'm pretty happy with my iPhone X. I used an iPhone 8 Plus briefly before this and didn't have much trouble. Which issues do you mean? > Heck, the whole slow down the machine to preserve old batteries shows what a pain it is to replace the battery and an acknowledgement that batteries degrade That definitely was poor form on their part, but they've dropped the price of battery replacements (I think until the end of this year?) and now have a dedicated screen for battery health.
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      > my 2016 15" MacBook Pro literally survived being trashed (in the form of dropping it, trying to crack it open, probably kicking it around, maybe even using it as a chopping board) by the Mossad Wait, what?
      - stevenjohns 8y ago
        Being born in a "red flag" country and trying to travel to Israel on an El Al flight is an interesting affair.
  - achompas 8y ago
    I just put iOS 12 on a family member’s iPhone 6, a four year old model. It runs beautifully. Apple replaced the battery on it for $29, even though the phone did not need it (capacity was above 90% after 2 years of use - it was purchased before phase-out). More people should replace batteries - their phones would last longer at a cheaper annual cost. We already know modern iPhones have more than enough compute in them. “Planned obsolescence” is not a thing with iPhones.
millstone 8y ago
Apple has problems but "cutting corners" is not one of them. The butterfly keyboard is bad, and the problem is apparently that it is too delicate. There's no evidence this bad keyboard was created as a cost-saving measure. The mechanism is complex, and clearly expensive. If anything it was a mistake born of fetishizing thinness.
- dawnerd 8y ago
  And they’re fixing it for free even out of warranty. Good luck getting a pc laptop manufacturer to repair a 2016 model for four years for free.
  - simion314 8y ago
    After a class action lawsuit happened, before they denied the issue.
    - xhruso00 8y ago
      Sad practice of Apple PR. Deny issues the longest time possible.
      - simion314 8y ago
        More sad is the customer attitude that fall for it and now praise Apple for replace the keyboard or the phone batteries but don't mention that it just needed some class action lawsuit.
  - Schlaefer 8y ago
    They start those programs years into the product cycle (afaik the 2018 model isn't covered at the moment). They decide every time if it is a warranty case. They decide if other parts need replacement first and you have to pay for those. - Also you actually paid for that, because Apple doesn't loses money on Macs. It's priced in. For other manufactures you just buy the replacement part for 40 bucks on amazon, it comes to your house and you replace it yourself within ten minutes. I prefer that cheap, zero downtime solution even if I have to pay for it myself. It's nice that this warranty program exists, but it's a band aid, not a fix.
arbol 8y ago
I've just moved away from Mac book Pro for this very reason. The new keyboard is horrendous.

KKKKkkkk1 8y ago

I'm typing this on a six-year old Lenovo that runs Ubuntu like a champ. Part of the reason why people run 10-year-old Apple hardware without upgrading is because it's so damn expensive.

xhruso00 8y ago
The old Macbooks were easily upgradable with ram and swapping hard disk for ssd. With the T2 introduction they are just making overpriced machines with 3 years warranty (extra for applecare)
wwweston 8y ago
How are sleep, wake, battery management, and sound? If they're essentially seamless, which Lenovo laptop are you using? (I'm considering a replacement for a 2012 MBP).
- KozmoNau7 8y ago
  My main laptop is a 2011 X220i, which has been upgraded to 8GB RAM, SSD, 5GHz wifi, USB 3.0 (ExpressCard) and a new 9-cell battery. I'm running KDE Neon on it right now, and everything worked perfectly from a default install. Before that I was using Linux Mint, and that also worked fine. Sleep+wake and just work, and the sound switches correctly if I plug in a displayport cable or a stereo jack. I get 6-7 hours of battery life, which is expected with an i3 that needs to work a little harder these days. Both Neon and Mind are based on Ubuntu LTS. I had a newer T440 briefly, and that had no issues either.
  - wwweston 8y ago
    Sounds like a good place to start with the Lenovo possibilities -- thanks!

Matthias247 8y ago

However it's highly doubtable if the current versions (with butterfly keyboards) will last for the same amount of time. They are also less future-proof than older revisions, due to non-exchangable RAM and storage. I feel for the Macbook side my main concern wouldn't be the increasing prices, but the combination with the fact that those things haven't really gotten better for some years. The entry level models with 128GB SSD are not better than was sold 3 years ago. I bought a 2015 Macbook Pro with 256GB, and the newest variant would be within the same speed rate, has the same amount of storage, and is more expensive. I would also prefer the screen as well as the keyboard of the 2015. The only thing that might be nice on the 2015 would be an (additional) USB-C/TB3 port.

raincom 8y ago
Geekbench shows 2018 Macbook Pro is almost 200% better than 2015 MBP (20000 multicore vs 10000 multicore, and 4 cores vs 6 cores).
- Matthias247 8y ago
  I think I compared the baseline models (lowest price 13" dual-core ones), and those had been very very close. The top models might be a different story, but the price gap there might be even bigger.
cgora 8y ago
> "They are also less future-proof than older revisions, due to non-exchangable RAM and storage." In my mind the most problematic thing that Apple does is make the batteries difficult to replace. Last I checked replacing a MacBook Pro battery through official channels also includes replacing the topcase, making it a nearly $400 repair.
- wild_preference 8y ago
  Interestingly, if you can demonstrate that your keyboard has gone to shit and they thus have to do a top-panel replacement, they have to replace the battery, too. At least that's what they did with my new Macbook Pro when a few of the keys came off with my fingers as I typed because I thought I could power through the crunches of debris that got under them. Possibly the one (cheeky) advantage of a hard to replace battery: free battery replacement when something else fails. :)

sdflhasjd 8y ago

>The MacBook Pro that I'm typing this on is closer to a decade old. I'm not typing on mine because it doesn't work.

mkagenius 8y ago

> MacBook Pro that I'm typing this on is closer to a decade old than is it new and is showing no signs of stopping. iPhone 5S on the other hand became unusable after 3 years. Battery lasts only 7 hours if you keep it still without a SIM card. The apps lag while opening. 16GB memory is way too less and I can't even upgrade it -- not even in an apple authorized center.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
reducesuffering 8y ago
On the other hand, the iPhone 5S is 5 years old, is still supported by the latest iOS 12, and I was using it until just recently. Many apps did lag a few seconds, but the battery lasted until the end of the day with moderate use. Quite impressive compared to the equivalent priced Androids that seem to always be 1.5 - 3 years life.