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> they have massive bargaining power Wouldn't call it "massive" in NYC. The office size is projected to employ 25,000 people in total. Nice number, but not "ma

> they have massive bargaining power Wouldn't call it "massive" in NYC. The office size is projected to employ 25,000 people in total. Nice number, but not "massive" for a city of 8,623,000 people.

roymurdock 8y ago
The average salary for these employees will be many x greater than the average NYC resident - you need to compare the relative size of the +25k employees to the ~200k subset of residents that make $200k+ in NY, not the entire 8M pop. Not to mention the knock-on effects of the many jobs the HQ will indirectly create - cleaning, food prep, waste mgmt, facilities, security, transportation, etc. But yes, I agree that NYC is probably the city with the highest bargaining power in the US due to its size and economic diversification. And yet they still submitted a bid, even while Mayor de Blasio was badmouthing the company [1] It will be interesting to see what the incentive package was - that's when we'll know just how much Amazon profited from the whole bid/selection process. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/bill-de-blasio-amazon-hq2-destructive-to-communities-new-york-city-2017-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/bill-de-blasio-amazon-hq2-de...
- hueving 8y ago
  >The average salary for these employees will be many x greater than the average NYC resident This isn't just an office for software developers so that's not likely to be true.
- briandear 8y ago
  And NYC gives a tax deal to the corporation, while the workers get to pay city income tax, state income tax and federal income tax, high property and sales taxes, while also having one of the highest costs of living of most cities. Not great for the future workers at all while Amazon gets to cash in on tax incentives. Amazon could have gotten great tax benefits elsewhere in places that don’t tax their employees so damned much. Unless you are single, New York City isn’t much of a draw due to either a long commute or excessively high housing costs. Amazon could literally locate in Mobile, Alabama and be able to recruit just fine. A $200k salary in Mobile is worth $600 in NYC.
  - dunpeal 8y ago
    > Amazon could literally locate in Mobile, Alabama and be able to recruit just fine. This is completely detached from reality. Amazon is fighting for top talent against other FAANGs and all other employers. If you can't also get an offer from the likes of Apple and Google, or at least other decent employers, Amazon doesn't really want you. If you can get offers from good employers in good locations, let along from Google and Facebook, you're not moving to Mobile Alabama for no Amazon job. Certainly not if you're a young single guy. Amazon wouldn't invest billions of dollars in this new office, compared to a few millions in Mobile, for no good reason. You may not like it, or Amazon generally, but they are known to do their homework.
- dunpeal 8y ago
  > The average salary for these employees will be many x greater than the average NYC resident - you need to compare the relative size of the +25k employees to the ~200k subset of residents that make $200k+ in NY, not the entire 8M pop. NYC isn't known for small salaries, partly because it's not easy to live in Manhattan on a small salary. A major industry in Manhattan is banking, and folks in investment banks pull salaries that easily rival engineers, even fresh out of school. In fact that's a big reason that tech stayed out of NYC for a long time. It used to be that even senior engineers made half of what a junior investment banker would get. Not all among these 25k employees will be paid over $200k. Not even among engineers. Amazon doesn't pay that well, for a FAANG. This isn't the Bay, where if you're not an engineer, you're a starving artist. More than anywhere else in the US, engineers who think of themselves as "handsomely paid" will be up for a rude awakening in Manhattan. For the sake of argument, let's say 5,000 of the new employees will be making $200k+. That means that their effect will be less than 15,000 employees making about $80k each, which I bet is about average for Manhattan. Not a ton of effect. > And yet they still submitted a bid, even while Mayor de Blasio was badmouthing the company It would be outrageous if they didn't. Even 100 well paying jobs should be enough for the mayor to try to court them. He's a public servant, and these jobs serve the public. Moreover, this will help establish NYC as a tech hub, something it's been striving for for quite a while, generally without great success. Finally, I bet the incentive package isn't as aggressive as others that were submitted. Amazon wants to be in NYC quite as much as NYC wants Amazon.
  - roymurdock 8y ago
    Good points. I think we're mostly in agreement that NY needed to put a bid in, unrealistic to call for cities to boycott the bid process. And that the impact of Amazon building a 2nd HQ will be pretty big for the city, if not in $$ terms (which I still believe) then at least in perception and to get access to the young professional talent that would've gone into banking/consulting otherwise. Will be interesting to see how the city handles increasing tech gentrification vs. bankers moving to connecticut
  - zjaffee 8y ago
    200k is at the low/mid range of an SDE2 at Amazon, Amazon pays more competitively than people give them credit for, especially compared to the majority of firms competing for software engineers in NYC right now.

> they have massive bargaining power Wouldn't call it "massive" in NYC. The office size is projected to employ 25,000 people in total. Nice number, but not "massive" for a city of 8,623,000 people.

roymurdock 8y ago

The average salary for these employees will be many x greater than the average NYC resident - you need to compare the relative size of the +25k employees to the ~200k subset of residents that make $200k+ in NY, not the entire 8M pop. Not to mention the knock-on effects of the many jobs the HQ will indirectly create - cleaning, food prep, waste mgmt, facilities, security, transportation, etc. But yes, I agree that NYC is probably the city with the highest bargaining power in the US due to its size and economic diversification. And yet they still submitted a bid, even while Mayor de Blasio was badmouthing the company [1] It will be interesting to see what the incentive package was - that's when we'll know just how much Amazon profited from the whole bid/selection process. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/bill-de-blasio-amazon-hq2-destructive-to-communities-new-york-city-2017-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/bill-de-blasio-amazon-hq2-de...

hueving 8y ago
>The average salary for these employees will be many x greater than the average NYC resident This isn't just an office for software developers so that's not likely to be true.
briandear 8y ago
And NYC gives a tax deal to the corporation, while the workers get to pay city income tax, state income tax and federal income tax, high property and sales taxes, while also having one of the highest costs of living of most cities. Not great for the future workers at all while Amazon gets to cash in on tax incentives. Amazon could have gotten great tax benefits elsewhere in places that don’t tax their employees so damned much. Unless you are single, New York City isn’t much of a draw due to either a long commute or excessively high housing costs. Amazon could literally locate in Mobile, Alabama and be able to recruit just fine. A $200k salary in Mobile is worth $600 in NYC.
- dunpeal 8y ago
  > Amazon could literally locate in Mobile, Alabama and be able to recruit just fine. This is completely detached from reality. Amazon is fighting for top talent against other FAANGs and all other employers. If you can't also get an offer from the likes of Apple and Google, or at least other decent employers, Amazon doesn't really want you. If you can get offers from good employers in good locations, let along from Google and Facebook, you're not moving to Mobile Alabama for no Amazon job. Certainly not if you're a young single guy. Amazon wouldn't invest billions of dollars in this new office, compared to a few millions in Mobile, for no good reason. You may not like it, or Amazon generally, but they are known to do their homework.
dunpeal 8y ago
> The average salary for these employees will be many x greater than the average NYC resident - you need to compare the relative size of the +25k employees to the ~200k subset of residents that make $200k+ in NY, not the entire 8M pop. NYC isn't known for small salaries, partly because it's not easy to live in Manhattan on a small salary. A major industry in Manhattan is banking, and folks in investment banks pull salaries that easily rival engineers, even fresh out of school. In fact that's a big reason that tech stayed out of NYC for a long time. It used to be that even senior engineers made half of what a junior investment banker would get. Not all among these 25k employees will be paid over $200k. Not even among engineers. Amazon doesn't pay that well, for a FAANG. This isn't the Bay, where if you're not an engineer, you're a starving artist. More than anywhere else in the US, engineers who think of themselves as "handsomely paid" will be up for a rude awakening in Manhattan. For the sake of argument, let's say 5,000 of the new employees will be making $200k+. That means that their effect will be less than 15,000 employees making about $80k each, which I bet is about average for Manhattan. Not a ton of effect. > And yet they still submitted a bid, even while Mayor de Blasio was badmouthing the company It would be outrageous if they didn't. Even 100 well paying jobs should be enough for the mayor to try to court them. He's a public servant, and these jobs serve the public. Moreover, this will help establish NYC as a tech hub, something it's been striving for for quite a while, generally without great success. Finally, I bet the incentive package isn't as aggressive as others that were submitted. Amazon wants to be in NYC quite as much as NYC wants Amazon.
- roymurdock 8y ago
  Good points. I think we're mostly in agreement that NY needed to put a bid in, unrealistic to call for cities to boycott the bid process. And that the impact of Amazon building a 2nd HQ will be pretty big for the city, if not in $$ terms (which I still believe) then at least in perception and to get access to the young professional talent that would've gone into banking/consulting otherwise. Will be interesting to see how the city handles increasing tech gentrification vs. bankers moving to connecticut
- zjaffee 8y ago
  200k is at the low/mid range of an SDE2 at Amazon, Amazon pays more competitively than people give them credit for, especially compared to the majority of firms competing for software engineers in NYC right now.