4 ms·

From a rational standpoint, I generally subscribe to the selection bias you (and Scriptor in a separate reply) raise as #1. However, for the sake of discussion,

From a rational standpoint, I generally subscribe to the selection bias you (and Scriptor in a separate reply) raise as #1. However, for the sake of discussion, let's operate under the assumption these sightings are legitimate/noteworthy. Personally, I grew out of bothering ant hills when I was about twelve. Nowadays, I pleasantly observe from high above. So why wouldn't aliens do the same? In this case, your second theory fills in the gaps. But, one would assume some species capable of this technology would also have cultural norms about not interfering with less developed groups. Much the same way we (generally) try not to interfere with primitive tribes around the world. I suppose, then, that the comparison could be made to the Sentinelese firing arrows at aircraft out of fear and suspicion. The aliens (in my opinion rightly) assume we would do the same to them because they are so foreign to us.

andrewflnr 8y ago
> one would assume some species capable of this technology would also have cultural norms about not interfering with less developed groups I would assume nothing of the sort. It's not as if humans even really conform to that norm. It's a pretty recent trend, at best. With aliens of unknown evolution/history, all bets are off.
- matthewwiese 8y ago
  Very faint point which I predicted the keen HN audience would be quick to contend. My reasoning to assume so is a wholly intuitive instinct that all ultra-high technology societies converge in their moral and ethical norms to a common limit. That to have survived the gamble of existence long enough to reach such a point, this civilization almost certainly needed to adopt a set of values wherein the "Prime Directive" incidentally coincides. Though I concede that it betrays my personal beliefs more than any tangible insight. For example, my hippie confidence does nothing to explain the likes of the Zerg or Tyranids, that's for sure. :)
  - matthewwiese 8y ago
    fair not faint as I hope most readers surmised -- for some reason I did not realize this error until it was too late to edit
  - slededit 8y ago
    Human ethics vary amongst groups and cultures - even highly advanced ones. I don't see any evidence to suggest a convergence on a "one true" moral code. For a brief period western values seemed to take over due to the west's influence, but that is waning today rather than increasing in momentum.
  - HeadsUpHigh 8y ago
    >My reasoning to assume so is a wholly intuitive instinct that all ultra-high technology societies converge in their moral and ethical norms to a common limit. We don't know that. We also don't know if the prime directive of aliens is the same as ours. By that I mean that whatever aliens may be visiting us may not be competitive whatsoever. Maybe their planet didn't have the same explosion with life that ours did so it's relatively empty of competition. In this case cooperating with others to expand as an instinct would be much more beneficial than competing. There is also no tangible evidence of the cosmos swarming with life, on planets or traveling so it might also be that -given how long it takes for planets to form stable orbits and how long it took on Earth for humans to appear and develop instruments to observe the universe- the universe is for the time being relatively empty of life. Some people revisited the drake equation and approached it as a coin flip: Sure there is a 50/50 chance but it's either/or, so based on their calculations the most likely scenario is for 0-2 times life forming on our galaxy. And FTL is still science fiction so it might be that the only species that can visit us are coming from other galaxies and have evolved to survive for billions of years. At the same time thanks to kepler we now know that planets with the characterists of earth are rather rare as are solar systems like ours. But there are a myriad of other planets with conditions too hard for humans but good enough for life found on Earth. In this case it might have been that some sort of life exists in the cosmos but it evolves much more slowly compared to us and thus needs a few extra billion years to reach space travel. So maybe the universe is experiencing it's first explosion of life and we are one of the first multi-cell organisms or step out of the water. Who knows. Also we don't know how technology would have evolved should it be that Earth had a different composition. Like for example metals are fairly rare on the crust but yet they are fundamental to our function. Maybe a planet that has a 10% metal crust would have evolved towards electricity much faster than us. Or a planet with lower gravity and lower or no magnetosphere could mean that whatever species developed there could have achieved space travel much faster and easier thus increasing the incentive( in human terms) of developing ftl. Right now ftl is sci-fi for us but remember that yes, it was the military who developed the internet but all the applications and the development of the science behind it came once more people could toy with it.
DoreenMichele 8y ago
I take it you don't do a lot of walking. People in cars are routinely assholes to pedestrians, presumably because they feel invulnerable. Why wouldn't folks on space ships visiting a primitive planet-bound race not be 10,000 times worse about fucking with the locals for kicks?
- matthewwiese 8y ago
  What a bizarre comparison, albeit a novel rebuttal! I do think your argument rests too much on the typical assumptions/biases a human brings to the table given our experience in this specific time and place. See my reply to andrewflnr for a nuanced response. Also, I do walk a lot! About 4 miles daily in fact. People in cars also happen to be assholes to each other. And to wildlife. Heck, they can even be assholes to others in the same vehicle!
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    You seem to assume folks in spaceships would be scientists or part of a Star Trek like organized fleet. But what if some of them are tourists? Americans in cars aren't part of some elite professional military or scientific service. Most Americans have cars. It's the norm here. And being a driver of a car in no way guarantees they are well educated, sophisticated, civilized types. There are even people driving illegally, without a license or insurance or whatever. That's part of why they can be such dicks to people they perceive as less powerful -- because they don't feel particularly powerful, etc. themselves.
    - deadbunny 8y ago
      4chan on holiday.
      - DoreenMichele 8y ago
        ^ He understands me.
HillaryBriss 8y ago
> I grew out of bothering ant hills when I was about twelve. Nowadays, I pleasantly observe from high above. So why wouldn't aliens do the same? Simple: the aliens that mess with us are delinquent eleven year olds joyriding their parents' saucer
- cvwright 8y ago
  I knew I wasn't the only one who watched Explorers in the 80s. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089114 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089114

andrewflnr 8y ago

> one would assume some species capable of this technology would also have cultural norms about not interfering with less developed groups I would assume nothing of the sort. It's not as if humans even really conform to that norm. It's a pretty recent trend, at best. With aliens of unknown evolution/history, all bets are off.

matthewwiese 8y ago
Very faint point which I predicted the keen HN audience would be quick to contend. My reasoning to assume so is a wholly intuitive instinct that all ultra-high technology societies converge in their moral and ethical norms to a common limit. That to have survived the gamble of existence long enough to reach such a point, this civilization almost certainly needed to adopt a set of values wherein the "Prime Directive" incidentally coincides. Though I concede that it betrays my personal beliefs more than any tangible insight. For example, my hippie confidence does nothing to explain the likes of the Zerg or Tyranids, that's for sure. :)
- matthewwiese 8y ago
  fair not faint as I hope most readers surmised -- for some reason I did not realize this error until it was too late to edit
- slededit 8y ago
  Human ethics vary amongst groups and cultures - even highly advanced ones. I don't see any evidence to suggest a convergence on a "one true" moral code. For a brief period western values seemed to take over due to the west's influence, but that is waning today rather than increasing in momentum.
- HeadsUpHigh 8y ago
  >My reasoning to assume so is a wholly intuitive instinct that all ultra-high technology societies converge in their moral and ethical norms to a common limit. We don't know that. We also don't know if the prime directive of aliens is the same as ours. By that I mean that whatever aliens may be visiting us may not be competitive whatsoever. Maybe their planet didn't have the same explosion with life that ours did so it's relatively empty of competition. In this case cooperating with others to expand as an instinct would be much more beneficial than competing. There is also no tangible evidence of the cosmos swarming with life, on planets or traveling so it might also be that -given how long it takes for planets to form stable orbits and how long it took on Earth for humans to appear and develop instruments to observe the universe- the universe is for the time being relatively empty of life. Some people revisited the drake equation and approached it as a coin flip: Sure there is a 50/50 chance but it's either/or, so based on their calculations the most likely scenario is for 0-2 times life forming on our galaxy. And FTL is still science fiction so it might be that the only species that can visit us are coming from other galaxies and have evolved to survive for billions of years. At the same time thanks to kepler we now know that planets with the characterists of earth are rather rare as are solar systems like ours. But there are a myriad of other planets with conditions too hard for humans but good enough for life found on Earth. In this case it might have been that some sort of life exists in the cosmos but it evolves much more slowly compared to us and thus needs a few extra billion years to reach space travel. So maybe the universe is experiencing it's first explosion of life and we are one of the first multi-cell organisms or step out of the water. Who knows. Also we don't know how technology would have evolved should it be that Earth had a different composition. Like for example metals are fairly rare on the crust but yet they are fundamental to our function. Maybe a planet that has a 10% metal crust would have evolved towards electricity much faster than us. Or a planet with lower gravity and lower or no magnetosphere could mean that whatever species developed there could have achieved space travel much faster and easier thus increasing the incentive( in human terms) of developing ftl. Right now ftl is sci-fi for us but remember that yes, it was the military who developed the internet but all the applications and the development of the science behind it came once more people could toy with it.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

I take it you don't do a lot of walking. People in cars are routinely assholes to pedestrians, presumably because they feel invulnerable. Why wouldn't folks on space ships visiting a primitive planet-bound race not be 10,000 times worse about fucking with the locals for kicks?

matthewwiese 8y ago
What a bizarre comparison, albeit a novel rebuttal! I do think your argument rests too much on the typical assumptions/biases a human brings to the table given our experience in this specific time and place. See my reply to andrewflnr for a nuanced response. Also, I do walk a lot! About 4 miles daily in fact. People in cars also happen to be assholes to each other. And to wildlife. Heck, they can even be assholes to others in the same vehicle!
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  You seem to assume folks in spaceships would be scientists or part of a Star Trek like organized fleet. But what if some of them are tourists? Americans in cars aren't part of some elite professional military or scientific service. Most Americans have cars. It's the norm here. And being a driver of a car in no way guarantees they are well educated, sophisticated, civilized types. There are even people driving illegally, without a license or insurance or whatever. That's part of why they can be such dicks to people they perceive as less powerful -- because they don't feel particularly powerful, etc. themselves.
  - deadbunny 8y ago
    4chan on holiday.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      ^ He understands me.

HillaryBriss 8y ago

> I grew out of bothering ant hills when I was about twelve. Nowadays, I pleasantly observe from high above. So why wouldn't aliens do the same? Simple: the aliens that mess with us are delinquent eleven year olds joyriding their parents' saucer

cvwright 8y ago
I knew I wasn't the only one who watched Explorers in the 80s. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089114 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089114