8 ms·

Glory Days: Adam Zamoyski's “Napoleon”

19 points by magda_wang 8y ago

ajuc 8y ago
Fun fact - Napoleon is almost a national hero in Poland thanks to recreation of kinda-Poland (Warsaw Duchy) and almost defeating Russia. He's even mentioned in Polish anthem. Adam Zamoyski being Polish might have been inspired by that to treat Napoleon more fairly (or at least differently) than English (and American) literature.
- piokoch 8y ago
  That's true. I think Poland is the only country where Napoleon is (was?) perceived as a hero - for a good reason, he was the enemy of Poland's enemies. The rest of Europe considered him to be someone more like Hitler of his times - for a good reasons too - battles that he fought were really bloody, he didn't care about his own soldiers' life, he didn't care about civilians being killed (those were more civilized times and typically soldiers fought only soldiers), as soon as he did away with Catholic Church influence on government he made slavery legal again. Polish literature that made Napoleon to be a hero and symbol of freedom was also detached from the reality. Napoleon indeed created Duchy of Warsaw (Poland didn't exists at that time) but its king was not Polish but it was Frederick Augustus I of Saxony. Polish Legions that were part of Napoleon's army were eventually sent to Haiti to put down Haitian Revolution. So legions that were created to fight for Poland freedom and independence were used to fight other people who wanted the same for themselves (some legion soldiers even joined Haitian rebels). In addition out of 6000 soldiers sent roughly 70 percent were killed (mostly by tropical diseases), only about 400 soldiers came back. So, effectively, Polish army lost all those people doing nothing good for the sake of Poland.
  - goto11 8y ago
    > The rest of Europe considered him to be someone more like Hitler of his times This is absolutely not true. He was revered by many idealists at the time all over Europe. Just take Germans like Goethe or Hegel. The comparison to Hitler is totally anachronistic. > as soon as he did away with Catholic Church influence on government he made slavery legal again Can you elaborate on that? My impression was that slavery had been abolished by the revolution which also tried to do away with religion. Napoleon era was partially a reaction against the excesses of the revolution, hence re-instating slavery and tolerating the church.
    - baud147258 8y ago
      > as soon as he did away with Catholic Church influence on government he made slavery legal again I think it's wrong to conflate the two events. Regarding the Catholic Church, removing its influence on the government was done during the Revolution and so had little influence in the post-revolution government. Tolerance toward the Church (and religion in general) was accomplished through the concordat of 1801 [0]. Regarding the re-establishment of slavery, it was done because of influence from slave-holder families, including the family of Napoleon's first wife. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concordat_of_1801 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concordat_of_1801 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism#Re-establishment_of_slavery_in_the_colonies_(1802) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism#Re-establishment_...
    - BugsJustFindMe 8y ago
      You're both half right. Napoleon reinstated slavery only in places that had refused to stop and just kept doing it after it was outlawed (i.e. the colonies). Slavery stayed banned in the Metropole.
    - jhbadger 8y ago
      Well, the Spanish at least certainly weren't fans. One of the most famous anti-war paintings is Goya's "The Third of May 1808", depicting Napoleon's soldiers executing resistance fighters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_of_May_1808 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_of_May_1808
      - goto11 8y ago
        Yes, and on the other hand you have works like the Puccini opera Tosca where Napoleon is the harbinger of freedom which liberates Rome from tyranny and oppression of the Church. It just goes to show there were differing opinions around Europe. As another example he gave Jews full civil rights (which of course offended the church greatly), which also makes the comparison to Hitler ridiculous.
  - baud147258 8y ago
    > Poland is the only country where Napoleon is (was?) perceived as a hero. The rest of Europe considered him to be someone more like Hitler of his times. Well in France, I wouldn't say he's considered a hero, but he's well regarded, in part because of pride (fought against all Europe, conquered most of it and nearly won) and also because he had a huge influence on our institutions (legion d'honneur, code Napoléon, establishment of the prefects, baccalaureat) and for ending the bloody and troubled period of the Revolution.
lkrubner 8y ago
For anyone who likes Adam Zamoyski, I include several very long excerpts from his other book here: http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/poland-was-shockingly-liberal-in-the-1400s http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/poland-was-shockingly... When I started dating a woman from Poland I decided I should learn something about the history of her country, and she recommend Adam Zamoyski to me. I was surprised to learn about Poland. When I wrote “Poland was shockingly liberal during the 1400s” I was expressing my discovery of Poland’s experiment with democracy, which every Pole knows about but few other Westerners know about.
- billfruit 8y ago
  James Michener wrote a novel "Poland", like his other novels is a very readable slightly fictionalized account of a country/topic.
hristov 8y ago
The more I learn about modern history and current politics the more I realize that modern society is greatly harmed by the worshipful study of past warmongering despots. A lot of the seemingly irrational and idiotic decisions taken by modern western politicians can perhaps be explained by the fact that they worshiped julius ceaser, alexander the great, napoleon, etc. at young impressionable age. So sure we should study napoleon, but lets not worship him. In my opinion Napoleon is best remembered as part of the retreat from moscow. His army just a massive mob of running, freezing, starving men tripping along a snow covered path littered with frozen corpses and gold and silver and silk that they stole and realized they couldn't carry home. The great emperor abandoning his army and running quickly away on a fast sled, because he was already facing a coup at home.
- Koshkin 8y ago
  Indeed, judging by their deeds and by the amount of human suffering that they created, both Caesar and Napoleon cannot be seen as anything but Hitlers of their times.
- cafard 8y ago
  It sounds as if you might enjoy Henry Fielding's The History of the Life of the Late Mr. Jonathan Wild the Great.
- crocal 8y ago
  I respectfully disagree. Napoleon should be primarily remembered for the “Code Civil”. That stuff is a towering good deed, and dwarfs any battle won or lost. It’s reported that Napoleon himself admitted that, but I never could confirm the veracity of this quote. EDIT: typo.
  - jerry40 8y ago
    Sounds quite cynical considering hundreds of thousands of soldiers and civilians who have died because of Napoleon's ambitions.
    - goto11 8y ago

19 points by magda_wang 8y ago

ajuc 8y ago

Fun fact - Napoleon is almost a national hero in Poland thanks to recreation of kinda-Poland (Warsaw Duchy) and almost defeating Russia. He's even mentioned in Polish anthem. Adam Zamoyski being Polish might have been inspired by that to treat Napoleon more fairly (or at least differently) than English (and American) literature.

piokoch 8y ago
That's true. I think Poland is the only country where Napoleon is (was?) perceived as a hero - for a good reason, he was the enemy of Poland's enemies. The rest of Europe considered him to be someone more like Hitler of his times - for a good reasons too - battles that he fought were really bloody, he didn't care about his own soldiers' life, he didn't care about civilians being killed (those were more civilized times and typically soldiers fought only soldiers), as soon as he did away with Catholic Church influence on government he made slavery legal again. Polish literature that made Napoleon to be a hero and symbol of freedom was also detached from the reality. Napoleon indeed created Duchy of Warsaw (Poland didn't exists at that time) but its king was not Polish but it was Frederick Augustus I of Saxony. Polish Legions that were part of Napoleon's army were eventually sent to Haiti to put down Haitian Revolution. So legions that were created to fight for Poland freedom and independence were used to fight other people who wanted the same for themselves (some legion soldiers even joined Haitian rebels). In addition out of 6000 soldiers sent roughly 70 percent were killed (mostly by tropical diseases), only about 400 soldiers came back. So, effectively, Polish army lost all those people doing nothing good for the sake of Poland.
- goto11 8y ago
  > The rest of Europe considered him to be someone more like Hitler of his times This is absolutely not true. He was revered by many idealists at the time all over Europe. Just take Germans like Goethe or Hegel. The comparison to Hitler is totally anachronistic. > as soon as he did away with Catholic Church influence on government he made slavery legal again Can you elaborate on that? My impression was that slavery had been abolished by the revolution which also tried to do away with religion. Napoleon era was partially a reaction against the excesses of the revolution, hence re-instating slavery and tolerating the church.
  - baud147258 8y ago
    > as soon as he did away with Catholic Church influence on government he made slavery legal again I think it's wrong to conflate the two events. Regarding the Catholic Church, removing its influence on the government was done during the Revolution and so had little influence in the post-revolution government. Tolerance toward the Church (and religion in general) was accomplished through the concordat of 1801 [0]. Regarding the re-establishment of slavery, it was done because of influence from slave-holder families, including the family of Napoleon's first wife. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concordat_of_1801 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concordat_of_1801 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism#Re-establishment_of_slavery_in_the_colonies_(1802) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism#Re-establishment_...
  - BugsJustFindMe 8y ago
    You're both half right. Napoleon reinstated slavery only in places that had refused to stop and just kept doing it after it was outlawed (i.e. the colonies). Slavery stayed banned in the Metropole.
  - jhbadger 8y ago
    Well, the Spanish at least certainly weren't fans. One of the most famous anti-war paintings is Goya's "The Third of May 1808", depicting Napoleon's soldiers executing resistance fighters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_of_May_1808 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_of_May_1808
    - goto11 8y ago
      Yes, and on the other hand you have works like the Puccini opera Tosca where Napoleon is the harbinger of freedom which liberates Rome from tyranny and oppression of the Church. It just goes to show there were differing opinions around Europe. As another example he gave Jews full civil rights (which of course offended the church greatly), which also makes the comparison to Hitler ridiculous.
- baud147258 8y ago
  > Poland is the only country where Napoleon is (was?) perceived as a hero. The rest of Europe considered him to be someone more like Hitler of his times. Well in France, I wouldn't say he's considered a hero, but he's well regarded, in part because of pride (fought against all Europe, conquered most of it and nearly won) and also because he had a huge influence on our institutions (legion d'honneur, code Napoléon, establishment of the prefects, baccalaureat) and for ending the bloody and troubled period of the Revolution.

lkrubner 8y ago

For anyone who likes Adam Zamoyski, I include several very long excerpts from his other book here: http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/poland-was-shockingly-liberal-in-the-1400s http://www.smashcompany.com/philosophy/poland-was-shockingly... When I started dating a woman from Poland I decided I should learn something about the history of her country, and she recommend Adam Zamoyski to me. I was surprised to learn about Poland. When I wrote “Poland was shockingly liberal during the 1400s” I was expressing my discovery of Poland’s experiment with democracy, which every Pole knows about but few other Westerners know about.

billfruit 8y ago
James Michener wrote a novel "Poland", like his other novels is a very readable slightly fictionalized account of a country/topic.

hristov 8y ago

The more I learn about modern history and current politics the more I realize that modern society is greatly harmed by the worshipful study of past warmongering despots. A lot of the seemingly irrational and idiotic decisions taken by modern western politicians can perhaps be explained by the fact that they worshiped julius ceaser, alexander the great, napoleon, etc. at young impressionable age. So sure we should study napoleon, but lets not worship him. In my opinion Napoleon is best remembered as part of the retreat from moscow. His army just a massive mob of running, freezing, starving men tripping along a snow covered path littered with frozen corpses and gold and silver and silk that they stole and realized they couldn't carry home. The great emperor abandoning his army and running quickly away on a fast sled, because he was already facing a coup at home.

Koshkin 8y ago
Indeed, judging by their deeds and by the amount of human suffering that they created, both Caesar and Napoleon cannot be seen as anything but Hitlers of their times.
cafard 8y ago
It sounds as if you might enjoy Henry Fielding's The History of the Life of the Late Mr. Jonathan Wild the Great.
crocal 8y ago
I respectfully disagree. Napoleon should be primarily remembered for the “Code Civil”. That stuff is a towering good deed, and dwarfs any battle won or lost. It’s reported that Napoleon himself admitted that, but I never could confirm the veracity of this quote. EDIT: typo.
- jerry40 8y ago
  Sounds quite cynical considering hundreds of thousands of soldiers and civilians who have died because of Napoleon's ambitions.
  - goto11 8y ago