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Consider what those “exploited” workers would be doing if enough fewer people bought iPhones for their labor not to be needed. Would they be better off than the

Consider what those “exploited” workers would be doing if enough fewer people bought iPhones for their labor not to be needed. Would they be better off than they are now? Presumably they are not being held against their will, so this is the best job they could find. Low-skilled factory labor is a worse job than sitting in a Silicon Valley office all day, but it’s probably better than rural poverty or unemployment.

savanaly 8y ago
I fully agree with this. To quote Paul Krugman: >You may say that the wretched of the earth should not be forced to serve as hewers of wood, drawers of water, and sewers of sneakers for the affluent. But what is the alternative? Should they be helped with foreign aid? Maybe–although the historical record of regions like southern Italy suggests that such aid has a tendency to promote perpetual dependence. Anyway, there isn’t the slightest prospect of significant aid materializing. Should their own governments provide more social justice? Of course–but they won’t, or at least not because we tell them to. And as long as you have no realistic alternative to industrialization based on low wages, to oppose it means that you are willing to deny desperately poor people the best chance they have of progress for the sake of what amounts to an aesthetic standard... [0] [0] https://slate.com/business/1997/03/in-praise-of-cheap-labor.html https://slate.com/business/1997/03/in-praise-of-cheap-labor....
- asdff 8y ago
  No one is arguing that these factories shouldn't have been built. No one is arguing that these jobs don't pay more. The concern is the conditions for the worker are simply inhumane and the companies commissioning this work should be held responsible for knowingly profiting off this behavior. These would be Apple-owned factories, not Foxconn's, if Apple hadn't figure out they can pass the blame to rights abuses to whoever's name is on the building.
  - savanaly 8y ago
    In that essay Krugman treats wage and working conditions as interchangeable, and I think that's the right approach. Two different jobs with different wages can be equally desirable if one has better working conditions than the other. So to say "Apple should pay more" vs "Apple should have better working conditions" is the same statement, there's no meaningful distinction. Either way the workers would benefit at the company's expense, and the tradeoff between working for, say, Apple vs what the best job there was before Apple built the factory is the same.
    - asdff 8y ago
      I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here? desirability = wage - working conditions? Apple paying marginally more than another job doesn't excuse the working conditions in the factory. There isn't a formula that makes subhuman conditions acceptable.
asdff 8y ago
You sound like an imperialist from the 1800s. Sure the factory job pays better than the field, but this doesn't excuse cruelty to the worker.
- umanwizard 8y ago
  Can you point out where I said I think cruelty to anyone is excusable?
lifeformed 8y ago
I don't think industry in developing countries necessarily needs to be exploitative. We don't need to stop these industries but we need to demand reasonable treatment and living conditions. The very fact that the workers' alternative is poverty means that they'll have a high tolerance of mistreatment, and that any good capitalist would be dumb not to exploit them. This asymmetry between employee and employer is not a justification that they should "just be happy they have any work at all", it should be a reason to demand symmetry from the employer. There's no straightforward solution, but the status quo is not good enough.
reaperducer 8y ago
Consider what those “exploited” workers would be doing if enough fewer people bought iPhones for their labor not to be needed. Would they be better off than they are now? This is the same attitude that led to the rise of unions in America. The factory owners kept telling their circle of friends that the workers were better off than not working at all. It was all a big echo chamber until one day "better off" turned into "not good enough" and people died. I'm not a big union guy, but I see a lot of history repeating itself in SV.

savanaly 8y ago

I fully agree with this. To quote Paul Krugman: >You may say that the wretched of the earth should not be forced to serve as hewers of wood, drawers of water, and sewers of sneakers for the affluent. But what is the alternative? Should they be helped with foreign aid? Maybe–although the historical record of regions like southern Italy suggests that such aid has a tendency to promote perpetual dependence. Anyway, there isn’t the slightest prospect of significant aid materializing. Should their own governments provide more social justice? Of course–but they won’t, or at least not because we tell them to. And as long as you have no realistic alternative to industrialization based on low wages, to oppose it means that you are willing to deny desperately poor people the best chance they have of progress for the sake of what amounts to an aesthetic standard... [0] [0] https://slate.com/business/1997/03/in-praise-of-cheap-labor.html https://slate.com/business/1997/03/in-praise-of-cheap-labor....

asdff 8y ago
No one is arguing that these factories shouldn't have been built. No one is arguing that these jobs don't pay more. The concern is the conditions for the worker are simply inhumane and the companies commissioning this work should be held responsible for knowingly profiting off this behavior. These would be Apple-owned factories, not Foxconn's, if Apple hadn't figure out they can pass the blame to rights abuses to whoever's name is on the building.
- savanaly 8y ago
  In that essay Krugman treats wage and working conditions as interchangeable, and I think that's the right approach. Two different jobs with different wages can be equally desirable if one has better working conditions than the other. So to say "Apple should pay more" vs "Apple should have better working conditions" is the same statement, there's no meaningful distinction. Either way the workers would benefit at the company's expense, and the tradeoff between working for, say, Apple vs what the best job there was before Apple built the factory is the same.
  - asdff 8y ago
    I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here? desirability = wage - working conditions? Apple paying marginally more than another job doesn't excuse the working conditions in the factory. There isn't a formula that makes subhuman conditions acceptable.

asdff 8y ago

You sound like an imperialist from the 1800s. Sure the factory job pays better than the field, but this doesn't excuse cruelty to the worker.

umanwizard 8y ago
Can you point out where I said I think cruelty to anyone is excusable?

lifeformed 8y ago

I don't think industry in developing countries necessarily needs to be exploitative. We don't need to stop these industries but we need to demand reasonable treatment and living conditions. The very fact that the workers' alternative is poverty means that they'll have a high tolerance of mistreatment, and that any good capitalist would be dumb not to exploit them. This asymmetry between employee and employer is not a justification that they should "just be happy they have any work at all", it should be a reason to demand symmetry from the employer. There's no straightforward solution, but the status quo is not good enough.

reaperducer 8y ago

Consider what those “exploited” workers would be doing if enough fewer people bought iPhones for their labor not to be needed. Would they be better off than they are now? This is the same attitude that led to the rise of unions in America. The factory owners kept telling their circle of friends that the workers were better off than not working at all. It was all a big echo chamber until one day "better off" turned into "not good enough" and people died. I'm not a big union guy, but I see a lot of history repeating itself in SV.