8 ms·

I think you're overly optimistic about how little people care about price. I'd argue that if you could halve the price by literally using slaves to manufacture

I think you're overly optimistic about how little people care about price. I'd argue that if you could halve the price by literally using slaves to manufacturer them, most people wouldn't care as long as those slaves were on the other side of the planet.

calimac 8y ago
Most are lying if they say they care about the location of the slave. Saudi Arabia recently eliminated slavery in 1965. Now they contract and imprison Indians, and packis to build their glass towers in Dubai and Abu Dhabi. Few care about anything other than having what they want now and looking good for other people. ...PATHETIC
eiaoa 8y ago
> I'd argue that if you could halve the price by literally using slaves to manufacturer them, most people wouldn't care as long as those slaves were on the other side of the planet. But I'd say that's mainly because they don't know or don't truly understand the situation. The reason for that is that literally billions of dollars are spent on advertising that papers over human rights issues by blasting competing messages about luxury, fashion, desirability, economy, etc. A passive consumer isn't going to be able to overcome the environment of information asymmetry that's actively maintained by wealthy corporations. Then there's also the issue of how the race to the bottom also actively destroys most ethical alternatives, which just turns understanding into despair over the lack of ethical options. I think if you put the half-price, slave-made product and a double-priced, ethically made alternative next to each other in a store, I think consumers would chose the latter if they were both sold under signs that clearly communicated the realities of the lives of the workers that made them. That's not going to happen because the incentives are for the company that mistreats its workers is to lie and cheat, so I don't think the market can solve this issue. It's going to require sustained intervention by ethical governments to fix the incentives in favor of human rights.
ashrk 8y ago
There's also the matter of difficulty keeping up with which products are tied to which bad actors, possibly far up their supply chain. Distributing responsibility for determining which companies are being ultra-shitty but not breaking the law imposes far too much time-cost on consumers to be reasonable, on top of the regular costs of participating in boycotts. They're not an effective means of enforcing society norms. Regulation is—making being ultra-shitty illegal works way better than imposing a cost of ((time it takes to keep up with and track shitty-company news)+(cost of participating in boycotts)) times (number of consumers) across your entire society. That's clearly untenable and it's not really the fault of individual consumers that boycotts don't work for enforcing social norms, since they can't really work, in the general case, once your economy scales past the local cottage industry level. It's impractical in a global, or even national economy. Then there's game-theoretical pressure to defect from a boycott, et c. Even the highly-engaged consumer will catch and (weakly, ineffectually) punish maybe single-digit percentages of the awfulness occurring in their economic footprint, at great time and probably monetary cost, unless they check out from the economy almost entirely.
adamc 8y ago
That is a depressing way to view the world.
- stupidbird 8y ago
  In my experience it's also a realistic way to view the world.
  - adamc 8y ago
    I am reminded of the following Terry Pratchett bit: “All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable." REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE. "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—" YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES. "So we can believe the big ones?" YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING. "They're not the same at all!" YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED. "Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—" MY POINT EXACTLY.”
    - adamc 8y ago
      My point being, some points of view are more constructive than others.
      - icebraining 8y ago
        Agreed, but believing that people care more than what they really do will just lead you to wasting your time trying to inform them. A better approach is to accept the reality and work from there.
    - stupidbird 8y ago
      naivety is a convenient point of view when you're not the one being exploited, @adamc
howlin 8y ago
People are fickle when it comes to adding ethical considerations to their purchasing decisions. The same person who will buy the cheapest meat without considering how the animal was treated will also vote for stricter animal welfare laws. In terms of worker's rights, I expect there would be more support for laws governing higher minimum conditions for workers of imported goods than there would be support for more expensive products that directly compete with cheaper products made by more exploited workers.
- stupidbird 8y ago
  >In terms of worker's rights, I expect there would be more support for laws governing higher minimum conditions for workers of imported goods than there would be support for more expensive products that directly compete with cheaper products made by more exploited workers. I think this is a good point, and is also likely why conservatives tend to prefer "minimal government" and "market forces." As a society I think we need someone to keep us in check as individuals. Note: This doesn't mean totalitarianism, we can come to the same conclusions democratically. This just means that socially we're more likely to vote for fair working conditions — but privately it's incredibly easy for us to be tempted into a choice that benefits us in the short-term and hurts someone else (or even ourselves) in the long-term. I know I can buy more expensive meat from farms that treat animals ethically and supports local farms. When I look at my bank account as I'm grocery shopping on a Sunday... I'm not buying the more expensive meat. I'm capable of it, but I'm also financially risk-adverse.
- qwertay 8y ago
  >The same person who will buy the cheapest meat without considering how the animal was treated will also vote for stricter animal welfare laws. A more expensive meat says nothing about how the animals were treated. Maybe it just means some business owner is making more money from it. Voting for animal welfare laws is much more impactful.
WalterSear 8y ago
They would doggedly refuse to face the consequences of their actions, as people do with meat.
tokyodude 8y ago
There have been plenty of successful boycotts and news exposes in the past to get companies to deal with various issues and they seem to have worked. If you want the depressing version what will more likely happen is all those workers will be replaced by robots and they'll be forced back to their previous far worse conditions
erikpukinskis 8y ago
I think you underestimate the degree to which social media is providing a check on power. More and more slave owners are being revealed every day, and people with their dollars force companies to improve policy.

calimac 8y ago

Most are lying if they say they care about the location of the slave. Saudi Arabia recently eliminated slavery in 1965. Now they contract and imprison Indians, and packis to build their glass towers in Dubai and Abu Dhabi. Few care about anything other than having what they want now and looking good for other people. ...PATHETIC

eiaoa 8y ago

> I'd argue that if you could halve the price by literally using slaves to manufacturer them, most people wouldn't care as long as those slaves were on the other side of the planet. But I'd say that's mainly because they don't know or don't truly understand the situation. The reason for that is that literally billions of dollars are spent on advertising that papers over human rights issues by blasting competing messages about luxury, fashion, desirability, economy, etc. A passive consumer isn't going to be able to overcome the environment of information asymmetry that's actively maintained by wealthy corporations. Then there's also the issue of how the race to the bottom also actively destroys most ethical alternatives, which just turns understanding into despair over the lack of ethical options. I think if you put the half-price, slave-made product and a double-priced, ethically made alternative next to each other in a store, I think consumers would chose the latter if they were both sold under signs that clearly communicated the realities of the lives of the workers that made them. That's not going to happen because the incentives are for the company that mistreats its workers is to lie and cheat, so I don't think the market can solve this issue. It's going to require sustained intervention by ethical governments to fix the incentives in favor of human rights.

ashrk 8y ago

There's also the matter of difficulty keeping up with which products are tied to which bad actors, possibly far up their supply chain. Distributing responsibility for determining which companies are being ultra-shitty but not breaking the law imposes far too much time-cost on consumers to be reasonable, on top of the regular costs of participating in boycotts. They're not an effective means of enforcing society norms. Regulation is—making being ultra-shitty illegal works way better than imposing a cost of ((time it takes to keep up with and track shitty-company news)+(cost of participating in boycotts)) times (number of consumers) across your entire society. That's clearly untenable and it's not really the fault of individual consumers that boycotts don't work for enforcing social norms, since they can't really work, in the general case, once your economy scales past the local cottage industry level. It's impractical in a global, or even national economy. Then there's game-theoretical pressure to defect from a boycott, et c. Even the highly-engaged consumer will catch and (weakly, ineffectually) punish maybe single-digit percentages of the awfulness occurring in their economic footprint, at great time and probably monetary cost, unless they check out from the economy almost entirely.

adamc 8y ago

That is a depressing way to view the world.

stupidbird 8y ago
In my experience it's also a realistic way to view the world.
- adamc 8y ago
  I am reminded of the following Terry Pratchett bit: “All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable." REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE. "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—" YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES. "So we can believe the big ones?" YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING. "They're not the same at all!" YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED. "Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—" MY POINT EXACTLY.”
  - adamc 8y ago
    My point being, some points of view are more constructive than others.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      Agreed, but believing that people care more than what they really do will just lead you to wasting your time trying to inform them. A better approach is to accept the reality and work from there.
  - stupidbird 8y ago
    naivety is a convenient point of view when you're not the one being exploited, @adamc

howlin 8y ago

People are fickle when it comes to adding ethical considerations to their purchasing decisions. The same person who will buy the cheapest meat without considering how the animal was treated will also vote for stricter animal welfare laws. In terms of worker's rights, I expect there would be more support for laws governing higher minimum conditions for workers of imported goods than there would be support for more expensive products that directly compete with cheaper products made by more exploited workers.

stupidbird 8y ago
>In terms of worker's rights, I expect there would be more support for laws governing higher minimum conditions for workers of imported goods than there would be support for more expensive products that directly compete with cheaper products made by more exploited workers. I think this is a good point, and is also likely why conservatives tend to prefer "minimal government" and "market forces." As a society I think we need someone to keep us in check as individuals. Note: This doesn't mean totalitarianism, we can come to the same conclusions democratically. This just means that socially we're more likely to vote for fair working conditions — but privately it's incredibly easy for us to be tempted into a choice that benefits us in the short-term and hurts someone else (or even ourselves) in the long-term. I know I can buy more expensive meat from farms that treat animals ethically and supports local farms. When I look at my bank account as I'm grocery shopping on a Sunday... I'm not buying the more expensive meat. I'm capable of it, but I'm also financially risk-adverse.
qwertay 8y ago
>The same person who will buy the cheapest meat without considering how the animal was treated will also vote for stricter animal welfare laws. A more expensive meat says nothing about how the animals were treated. Maybe it just means some business owner is making more money from it. Voting for animal welfare laws is much more impactful.

WalterSear 8y ago

They would doggedly refuse to face the consequences of their actions, as people do with meat.

tokyodude 8y ago

There have been plenty of successful boycotts and news exposes in the past to get companies to deal with various issues and they seem to have worked. If you want the depressing version what will more likely happen is all those workers will be replaced by robots and they'll be forced back to their previous far worse conditions

erikpukinskis 8y ago

I think you underestimate the degree to which social media is providing a check on power. More and more slave owners are being revealed every day, and people with their dollars force companies to improve policy.