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Growing the pie has always helped everyone in America. Is there something that has fundamentally changed in your view to alter this trend? Are there Americans o

Growing the pie has always helped everyone in America. Is there something that has fundamentally changed in your view to alter this trend? Are there Americans out there who want to do these types of jobs?

toomuchtodo 8y ago
The pie hasn’t grown for four decades [1], and the middle class has been hollowed out [2]. The existing system must be fixed before more burden is placed on it. A job not being filled in no way validates that someone should fill that job. Some jobs should not exist (anything where life and limb is constantly in significant peril, for example). We don't throw our hands up when we can't find workers to clean up nuclear waste accidents. We build robots for the job. [1] https://i.stack.imgur.com/iCTuo.jpg https://i.stack.imgur.com/iCTuo.jpg [2] https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/09/459087477/the-tipping-point-most-americans-no-longer-are-middle-class https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/09/459087477...
- moorhosj 8y ago
  ==The pie hasn’t grown for four decades [1], and the middle class has been hollowed out [2]. The existing system must be fixed before more burden is placed on it.== Your first chart doesn't show a stagnant pie, looking at GDP numbers disproves that theory. The pie has absolutely grown, corporations have just chosen to keep more of it. The problem is that you are connecting these things directly to immigration and there isn't much evidence to back that up. You are taking a real problem (stagnating wages and fewer corporate profits going to workers) and shoehorning in an ideological belief to explain it. Your sources provide no evidence that immigration is to blame for either of these phenomena. They simple show that the phenomena exists. ==We don't throw our hands up when we can't find workers to clean up nuclear waste accidents. We build robots for the job.== Wasn't your entire point that we are just hiring immigrants to do this work instead of building robots (your Wisconsin dairy example)?
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    > The pie has absolutely grown, corporations have just chosen to keep more of it. Then the pie has not grown. You're simply advocating throwing more people on an already broken system. > Wasn't your entire point that we are just hiring immigrants to do this work instead of building robots (your Wisconsin dairy example)? My argument is that automation should be prioritized over subjugating illegal immigrants who have no recourse. Dairy farmers cannot afford to pay a legal wage, therefore automation is their only option if ICE shows up and prevents them from hiring illegal immigrants (the fact that the dairy industry is hideously broken and needs to shrink dramatically is a topic for another thread). I am pro-immigration when properly implemented, but staunchly anti-abuse of all people.
    - mynameisvlad 8y ago
      But we're not talking about illegal immigrants who have no recourse here. We're talking about opening up immigration so that these people, and others, can come in and do these jobs that as of now only go to illegals, while also receiving the benefits and protections that come as a legal immigrant. That seems to be exactly what you want, so why are you against it?
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        I feel that I have sufficiently explained my thesis through my other comments.
    - moorhosj 8y ago
      > Then the pie has not grown. You're simply advocating throwing more people on an already broken system. I'm not sure where you get this idea, but the growth of US GDP is evidence that the pie has grown. The reality is that corporations are keeping a larger percentage of that pie than ever before. The two are not mutually exclusive. Secondly, I am not advocating for anything, I am just trying to understand your stance.

toomuchtodo 8y ago

The pie hasn’t grown for four decades [1], and the middle class has been hollowed out [2]. The existing system must be fixed before more burden is placed on it. A job not being filled in no way validates that someone should fill that job. Some jobs should not exist (anything where life and limb is constantly in significant peril, for example). We don't throw our hands up when we can't find workers to clean up nuclear waste accidents. We build robots for the job. [1] https://i.stack.imgur.com/iCTuo.jpg https://i.stack.imgur.com/iCTuo.jpg [2] https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/09/459087477/the-tipping-point-most-americans-no-longer-are-middle-class https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/12/09/459087477...

moorhosj 8y ago
==The pie hasn’t grown for four decades [1], and the middle class has been hollowed out [2]. The existing system must be fixed before more burden is placed on it.== Your first chart doesn't show a stagnant pie, looking at GDP numbers disproves that theory. The pie has absolutely grown, corporations have just chosen to keep more of it. The problem is that you are connecting these things directly to immigration and there isn't much evidence to back that up. You are taking a real problem (stagnating wages and fewer corporate profits going to workers) and shoehorning in an ideological belief to explain it. Your sources provide no evidence that immigration is to blame for either of these phenomena. They simple show that the phenomena exists. ==We don't throw our hands up when we can't find workers to clean up nuclear waste accidents. We build robots for the job.== Wasn't your entire point that we are just hiring immigrants to do this work instead of building robots (your Wisconsin dairy example)?
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  > The pie has absolutely grown, corporations have just chosen to keep more of it. Then the pie has not grown. You're simply advocating throwing more people on an already broken system. > Wasn't your entire point that we are just hiring immigrants to do this work instead of building robots (your Wisconsin dairy example)? My argument is that automation should be prioritized over subjugating illegal immigrants who have no recourse. Dairy farmers cannot afford to pay a legal wage, therefore automation is their only option if ICE shows up and prevents them from hiring illegal immigrants (the fact that the dairy industry is hideously broken and needs to shrink dramatically is a topic for another thread). I am pro-immigration when properly implemented, but staunchly anti-abuse of all people.
  - mynameisvlad 8y ago
    But we're not talking about illegal immigrants who have no recourse here. We're talking about opening up immigration so that these people, and others, can come in and do these jobs that as of now only go to illegals, while also receiving the benefits and protections that come as a legal immigrant. That seems to be exactly what you want, so why are you against it?
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      I feel that I have sufficiently explained my thesis through my other comments.
  - moorhosj 8y ago
    > Then the pie has not grown. You're simply advocating throwing more people on an already broken system. I'm not sure where you get this idea, but the growth of US GDP is evidence that the pie has grown. The reality is that corporations are keeping a larger percentage of that pie than ever before. The two are not mutually exclusive. Secondly, I am not advocating for anything, I am just trying to understand your stance.