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I know there are folks on here who will roll their eyes, but this kind of display is emblematic of a fascist government. Fascism is the bonding of state and cor

I know there are folks on here who will roll their eyes, but this kind of display is emblematic of a fascist government. Fascism is the bonding of state and corporate power, driven by nationalism, authoritarianism, and a (usually) charismatic leader. For the record, I'm not a radical. I'm not even particularly partisan. I'm an average, middle-class American. But I've read enough history to know which way the wind is blowing in this country. I only hope we can come to our senses before it's truly too late.

tomschlick 8y ago
> but this kind of display is emblematic of a fascist government Enforcing immigration law passed by a democratically elected congress is fascist? Really?
- jnbiche 8y ago
  No, a corporation using a federal law enforcement agency to target owners who were disfavored by the corporation is typical of fascism. I'm not even interested in this fake debate that was stirred up about immigration. Of course we have to have enforced borders. Of course we need immigration laws that will be enforced. What concerns me is the collaboration between corporations and state power, all taking place in an atmosphere of acute nationalism.
  - tomschlick 8y ago
    Would you see it the same way if it were related to taxes? As in, if 7-11 found out certain franchisee's were skirting tax laws using their brand name and they reported it to the IRS to avoid any collusion claims ahead of time would that be fascist? If not then how is that different?
    - jnbiche 8y ago
      The point of the article is that a unusually high number of businesses targeted for these actions happened to be critiques of corporate 7-Eleven, or engaged in lawsuits. And yes, I would worry likewise if it were taxes used as the underlying cause for these kinds of raids. Again, I'm explicitly not calling this "fascism". I said "emblematic of fascism". I actually don't think we've descended into fascism yet. But as a country, we're getting comfortable with situations that could lead us to a very bad place. Finally, could someone please vouch for my flagged top-level comment, as it's not breaking any HN guidelines as far as I'm aware?
      - will_brown 8y ago
        You could call it “facisism” but that just creates more mudslinging...for example does it help by name calling the franchisees “outlaws” or “criminal enterprises”. It’s ugly behavior for a franchisor to give tips to the federal government about its franchisees illegally hiring undocumented workers...but that’s what happens when you litigate with unclean hands, the otherside will expose you. The Franchisor would be just as likely to inform local police or DEA if they found out the Franchisees were selling drugs out of their stores. What is the government supposed to do with tips like these? Federal government can’t just ignore tips of criminal/illegal activity because the tipster has a personal bone to pick the alleged businesses hiring undocumented immigrants.
        notacoward 8y ago
        > What is the government supposed to do with tips like these? The answer's right there in the story. Investigate normally, issue subpoenas with a reasonable time to respond, etc. instead of rushing in with large teams of uniformed personnel to disrupt business and discourage customers. It's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt in one of these, but maybe that's the point. Kristallnacht, anyone?
        jnbiche 8y ago
        > You could call it “facisism” but that just creates more mudslinging...for example does it help by name calling the franchisees “outlaws” or “criminal enterprises”. I'm not really concerned about offending people by using the term "fascism". And it's hardly about the issue alone, or this issue even playing a significant part in my interpretation of where we are with respect to history. It's the entire zeitgeist of the last 10 years that have got me worried, and particularly the past 2 years. If you're at all familiar with interwar European history, then you've probably had at least a few shivers of recognition over the past 2-3 years of that epoch. I mean, by God I hope I'm wrong, and I hope people will look back at my comments from this time and laugh, "what a paranoid idiot". But I don't think I'm wrong. We're at a dangerous point in time. Things could go real bad, real fast.
      - masonic 8y ago
  - msla 8y ago
    No, it isn't: People here want to perform a bait-and-switch: "Corporatism" was a word the Fascists used, but people want it to mean "business involvement in government", so the use it in the new sense while stating it's the word the Fascists used. It's dishonest.
- notacoward 8y ago
  Yes, selectively enforcing laws to benefit one side in a business relationship is fascist.
  - tomschlick 8y ago
    Pretty sure ICE will enforce the law against anyone reported to them.
    - notacoward 8y ago
      Yes, I'm pretty sure they would, but if they've gone out of their way to prioritize 7-11 corporate's requests, or prosecute them more aggressively than they would in general, then they're colluding in discrimination. And none of that absolves 7-11 corporate for calling them in selectively.
msla 8y ago
> Fascism is the bonding of state and corporate power ... only if you define "corporation" the way Fascists did: http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/corporatism.htm http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/corporatism.htm > In the last half of the 19th century people of the working class in Europe were beginning to show interest in the ideas of socialism and syndicalism. Some members of the intelligentsia, particularly the Catholic intelligentsia, decided to formulate an alternative to socialism which would emphasize social justice without the radical solution of the abolition of private property. The result was called Corporatism. The name had nothing to do with the notion of a business corporation except that both words are derived from the Latin word for body, corpus. > The basic idea of corporatism is that the society and economy of a country should be organized into major interest groups (sometimes called corporations) and representatives of those interest groups settle any problems through negotiation and joint agreement. In contrast to a market economy which operates through competition a corporate economic works through collective bargaining.
- lupire 8y ago
  It's fascinating that "fascism" today means nothing like what it did originally, even though the definition hasn't changed -- the definition of the words in the definition changed! "Fascism" is a bad word simply because Mussolini came to power when Fascism was popular in Italy, and Nazism became "Fascist" because Hitler allied with Mussolini.
  - notacoward 8y ago
    No, "fascism" is not unpopular simply because of that association. It's unpopular because its core principles as stated by its own proponents - authoritarianism, nationalism, violence as a tool of policy (which the "fasces" visually represents) - were already in disrepute at its founding. It was meant to be a bad word to those who believe in democracy, globalism, and non-violence.
  - msla 8y ago
    > It's fascinating that "fascism" today means nothing like what it did originally, even though the definition hasn't changed -- the definition of the words in the definition changed! That's entirely incorrect: People here want to perform a bait-and-switch: "Corporatism" was a word the Fascists used, but people want it to mean "business involvement in government", so the use it in the new sense while stating it's the word the Fascists used. It's dishonest.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
msla 8y ago
People here want to perform a bait-and-switch: "Corporatism" was a word the Fascists used, but people want it to mean "business involvement in government", so the use it in the new sense while stating it's the word the Fascists used. It's dishonest.
msla 8y ago
Stop lying.

tomschlick 8y ago

> but this kind of display is emblematic of a fascist government Enforcing immigration law passed by a democratically elected congress is fascist? Really?

jnbiche 8y ago
No, a corporation using a federal law enforcement agency to target owners who were disfavored by the corporation is typical of fascism. I'm not even interested in this fake debate that was stirred up about immigration. Of course we have to have enforced borders. Of course we need immigration laws that will be enforced. What concerns me is the collaboration between corporations and state power, all taking place in an atmosphere of acute nationalism.
- tomschlick 8y ago
  Would you see it the same way if it were related to taxes? As in, if 7-11 found out certain franchisee's were skirting tax laws using their brand name and they reported it to the IRS to avoid any collusion claims ahead of time would that be fascist? If not then how is that different?
  - jnbiche 8y ago
    The point of the article is that a unusually high number of businesses targeted for these actions happened to be critiques of corporate 7-Eleven, or engaged in lawsuits. And yes, I would worry likewise if it were taxes used as the underlying cause for these kinds of raids. Again, I'm explicitly not calling this "fascism". I said "emblematic of fascism". I actually don't think we've descended into fascism yet. But as a country, we're getting comfortable with situations that could lead us to a very bad place. Finally, could someone please vouch for my flagged top-level comment, as it's not breaking any HN guidelines as far as I'm aware?
    - will_brown 8y ago
      You could call it “facisism” but that just creates more mudslinging...for example does it help by name calling the franchisees “outlaws” or “criminal enterprises”. It’s ugly behavior for a franchisor to give tips to the federal government about its franchisees illegally hiring undocumented workers...but that’s what happens when you litigate with unclean hands, the otherside will expose you. The Franchisor would be just as likely to inform local police or DEA if they found out the Franchisees were selling drugs out of their stores. What is the government supposed to do with tips like these? Federal government can’t just ignore tips of criminal/illegal activity because the tipster has a personal bone to pick the alleged businesses hiring undocumented immigrants.
      - notacoward 8y ago
        > What is the government supposed to do with tips like these? The answer's right there in the story. Investigate normally, issue subpoenas with a reasonable time to respond, etc. instead of rushing in with large teams of uniformed personnel to disrupt business and discourage customers. It's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt in one of these, but maybe that's the point. Kristallnacht, anyone?
      - jnbiche 8y ago
        > You could call it “facisism” but that just creates more mudslinging...for example does it help by name calling the franchisees “outlaws” or “criminal enterprises”. I'm not really concerned about offending people by using the term "fascism". And it's hardly about the issue alone, or this issue even playing a significant part in my interpretation of where we are with respect to history. It's the entire zeitgeist of the last 10 years that have got me worried, and particularly the past 2 years. If you're at all familiar with interwar European history, then you've probably had at least a few shivers of recognition over the past 2-3 years of that epoch. I mean, by God I hope I'm wrong, and I hope people will look back at my comments from this time and laugh, "what a paranoid idiot". But I don't think I'm wrong. We're at a dangerous point in time. Things could go real bad, real fast.
    - masonic 8y ago
- msla 8y ago
  No, it isn't: People here want to perform a bait-and-switch: "Corporatism" was a word the Fascists used, but people want it to mean "business involvement in government", so the use it in the new sense while stating it's the word the Fascists used. It's dishonest.
notacoward 8y ago
Yes, selectively enforcing laws to benefit one side in a business relationship is fascist.
- tomschlick 8y ago
  Pretty sure ICE will enforce the law against anyone reported to them.
  - notacoward 8y ago
    Yes, I'm pretty sure they would, but if they've gone out of their way to prioritize 7-11 corporate's requests, or prosecute them more aggressively than they would in general, then they're colluding in discrimination. And none of that absolves 7-11 corporate for calling them in selectively.

msla 8y ago

> Fascism is the bonding of state and corporate power ... only if you define "corporation" the way Fascists did: http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/corporatism.htm http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/corporatism.htm > In the last half of the 19th century people of the working class in Europe were beginning to show interest in the ideas of socialism and syndicalism. Some members of the intelligentsia, particularly the Catholic intelligentsia, decided to formulate an alternative to socialism which would emphasize social justice without the radical solution of the abolition of private property. The result was called Corporatism. The name had nothing to do with the notion of a business corporation except that both words are derived from the Latin word for body, corpus. > The basic idea of corporatism is that the society and economy of a country should be organized into major interest groups (sometimes called corporations) and representatives of those interest groups settle any problems through negotiation and joint agreement. In contrast to a market economy which operates through competition a corporate economic works through collective bargaining.

lupire 8y ago
It's fascinating that "fascism" today means nothing like what it did originally, even though the definition hasn't changed -- the definition of the words in the definition changed! "Fascism" is a bad word simply because Mussolini came to power when Fascism was popular in Italy, and Nazism became "Fascist" because Hitler allied with Mussolini.
- notacoward 8y ago
  No, "fascism" is not unpopular simply because of that association. It's unpopular because its core principles as stated by its own proponents - authoritarianism, nationalism, violence as a tool of policy (which the "fasces" visually represents) - were already in disrepute at its founding. It was meant to be a bad word to those who believe in democracy, globalism, and non-violence.
- msla 8y ago
  > It's fascinating that "fascism" today means nothing like what it did originally, even though the definition hasn't changed -- the definition of the words in the definition changed! That's entirely incorrect: People here want to perform a bait-and-switch: "Corporatism" was a word the Fascists used, but people want it to mean "business involvement in government", so the use it in the new sense while stating it's the word the Fascists used. It's dishonest.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

msla 8y ago

People here want to perform a bait-and-switch: "Corporatism" was a word the Fascists used, but people want it to mean "business involvement in government", so the use it in the new sense while stating it's the word the Fascists used. It's dishonest.

msla 8y ago

Stop lying.